Toronto's and Province's New 12.4B Eglinton/SRT/Sheppard Plan

[kEiThZ]

I'm not a fan of this plan. Though I like it marginally more than the spaghetti on a map socio-economic exercise that was Transit City.

My big gripe is the joining of the SRT and Eglinton line. This really screws over thousands of riders along Eglinton East. I don't get why planners can't ever think like ordinary citizens for once. It would have been far more sensible to keep Eglinton on Eglinton and extend the Bloor-Danforth line to STC as has been envisioned for decades. This move simply looks like TC v2.0 when it comes to STC.

That said, it's better than what was proposed before. And I suppose, for some riders (those bound for stops north of Bloor on Yonge) this will be a solid option. However, you're still going to get lots of riders who will incur just as many transfers as they did before.

I hope that, if and when, they build past Eglinton East that they interline it, and not impose unecessary transfers at Kennedy for Eglinton East riders.

Two things really strike me looking at the map. The need for a TTC-GO fare agreement. And the need for a DRL. Should be fun to see what happens when Eglinton dumps thousands of riders on the Yonge line. But hey, at least, not all Scarborough riders will be transferring at Bloor anymore.

 

[LNahid2000]

Why is Willowdale still in between Bayview and Bessarion?

 

[TOareaFan]

You know what is mildly offensive about maps like the one above?

They go to great lengths to draw in planned items like bus rapid transit that will hook into this network and leave out existing BRT (Zum) that is already in operation and will connect right into it. This forgetting about things like Zum always has me fearful that when they build those new subway stations in Vaughan there will be priority, ease of use/access, for things like the GO Transit busway and Viva but that Zum will just be a "oh, you people out there have buses too" sort of afterthought.

It is not just this map... I have yet to see a map/plan for any of those stations that Zum could (and I suggest, will) connect to with the words Zum or Brampton Transit on them....if they exist I would be happy to apologize but I haven't seen 'em.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Why the hell are we changing the LRV order? How many cities in the GTA are planning LRT lines right now? I doubt Waterloo and Hamilton will get anywhere near as good pricing on vehicles when they place their own orders for 25 cars. Send the extras there.

With rising gasoline prices, the TTC just might need the extra light rail vehicles sooner than later.

 

[kEiThZ]

With rising gasoline prices, the TTC just might need the extra light rail vehicles sooner than later.

Beat that drum all you want. People still drive in Europe where gas costs 2-3x what it does here.

Even with oil prices as high as they are right now, it's not like there's a mass conversion going on to transit across the GTA.

What drives transit use is things like convenience. Slow as molasses transit with tons of transfers (the situation today) is not going to get anybody out of their cars. Even at $200/bbl. They will just cut back elsewhere....and still drive.

And ultimately what's going to change things is not a handful of LRT lines. I will bet money that the biggest impact change will be the implementation of Presto, fare by distance schemes, and fare and service integration across transit systems. When transit is almost as easy to use, convenient and hassle free as a car, people will leave their car behind, even if oil is at $80/bbl.

 

[Dan416]

Agreement Reached Between Toronto and Ontario on City’s Transit Future


http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/...-toronto-and-ontario-on-citys-transit-future/

I find this map very unreadable. It's almost as bad as the GO Transit map.

 

[noctis]

The plan looks good but I got some questions about it:

1. On the West side of the Eglinton LRT: Why not extend it all the way to the airport? is there a reason why it is terminated at Black Creek?

2. The SRT & East side of the Eglinton LRT: I thought there was a discussion going on about converting the SRT to subway. What happened to that idea? Terminating the East side of the Eglinton LRT at Kennedy station would make more sense rather than align it with the current SRT, imo.

 

[Dan416]

The plan looks good but I got some questions about it:

1. On the West side of the Eglinton LRT: Why not extend it all the way to the airport? is there a reason why it is terminated at Black Creek?

2. The SRT & East side of the Eglinton LRT: I thought there was a discussion going on about converting the SRT to subway. What happened to that idea? Terminating the East side of the Eglinton LRT at Kennedy station would make more sense rather than align it with the current SRT, imo.

1. The Eglinton LRT was already chopped to Jane Street I believe by Miller & McGuinty. This is just a further cut.

2. I agree. Leave the Eglinton line on Eglinton and replace the SRT with a subway while the SRT is in operation.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

1. The Eglinton LRT was already chopped to Jane Street I believe by Miller & McGuinty. This is just a further cut.

McGuinty was the chopper. Miller was quite openly critical of the decision to cut back the lines.

 

[Amy Rose]

Congratulations Pro HRT people, your cries of HRT and underground LRT sure has gotten you your prize, but guess what? THE WEST END HAS JUST LOST except for a small bit of Eglinton, and Sheppard West. Scarborough has been pampered and you even cry for full out HRT to STC. Why is it that the East end gets better service than west? You cry bs and that these "streetcars" don't save time and such. Its possible to save time and its called playing around with the schedule and the traffic light so you get a lot of green lights. Well, you got what you "needed" and now you pay the fiscal consequences. Now lets get Tim Hudak to bury Eglinton!

 

[Rainforest]

My big gripe is the joining of the SRT and Eglinton line. This really screws over thousands of riders along Eglinton East. I don't get why planners can't ever think like ordinary citizens for once. It would have been far more sensible to keep Eglinton on Eglinton and extend the Bloor-Danforth line to STC as has been envisioned for decades. This move simply looks like TC v2.0 when it comes to STC.

Indeed, if all the funding is going to Eglinton and SRT anyway, it would be more sensible to save some on Eglinton by settling for street median between Don Mills and Kennedy, and apply the savings to extend the Danforth subway to STC. That configuration would cost about same, but would be more sustainable and easier to navigate.

There are two reasons for joining Eglinton and SRT, both those reasons have little to do with solid transit planning. For one, Ford can't stand dedicated surface transit lanes, period. Spending money on burying all of Eglinton does not leave enough left for subway to STC. The other reason is that the province wants to "own" transit lines it funds, which makes their fiscal position look better due to some arcane accounting rules. So, they'd rather "own" the whole Eglinton - SRT line, than just Eglinton; owning a section of subway between Kennedy and STC would be too ridiculous. Needless to say, that kind of "ownership" is meaningless even if applied to the whole line: the provincial government can't sell that line without being quickly dethroned.

And the need for a DRL. Should be fun to see what happens when Eglinton dumps thousands of riders on the Yonge line. But hey, at least, not all Scarborough riders will be transferring at Bloor anymore.

Absolutely. Moreover, Eglinton from Don Mills to Yonge might be under pressure itself, trying to transport a fair number of Scarborough residents, plus people boarded on Eglinton itself, plus those transferred from the Lawrence East and Don Mills bus routes.

But despite all those shortcomings, I'd like to see Eglinton construction progressing ASAP; just to reduce the risk of the funding being trimmed after the provincial elections.

 

[Rainforest]

Congratulations Pro HRT people, your cries of HRT and underground LRT sure has gotten you your prize

I doubt that discussions on this forum contributed much to the accent of Ford. In fact, if the opinion spread on this forum reflected the electrorate at large, Ford would never get elected.

He got elected because his message about cutting expenses and "waste" at the municipal level resonated with many voters; not because of his stance for HRT versus LRT or otherwise. If he happened to personally like LRT, he could continue the Miller's course of building LRT and muster about same level of public support as he has now.

 

[kEiThZ]

Congratulations Pro HRT people, your cries of HRT and underground LRT sure has gotten you your prize, but guess what? THE WEST END HAS JUST LOST except for a small bit of Eglinton, and Sheppard West. Scarborough has been pampered and you even cry for full out HRT to STC. Why is it that the East end gets better service than west? You cry bs and that these "streetcars" don't save time and such. Its possible to save time and its called playing around with the schedule and the traffic light so you get a lot of green lights. Well, you got what you "needed" and now you pay the fiscal consequences. Now lets get Tim Hudak to bury Eglinton!

I'm sorry. But can you please share whatever you've been smoking. Scarborough has been getting screwed over, with respect to transit, for decades. First there was that abomination of ICTS foisted on Scarborough instead of extending the Bloor-Danforth line right to STC. It was terrible as a semi-HRT solution. And offered none of the benefits of the LRT network for Scarborough envisioned by the likes of Steve Munro. Then there was the Sheppard subway. Meant to alleviate congestion along Sheppard and offer a reasonable connection for Scarborough to North York. It did neither because it never entered Scarborough. Then there was Transit City. All lines bypassed a provincially-designated urban growth centre, and bypassed busier routes in favour of a transit based socio-economic engineering experiment. Nothing on McCowan or Markham, but Morningside needs LRT? Ellesmere got nothing, despite being one of the densest corridors in Scarborough and being the preferred routing for connections from Durham, but a billion on Sheppard to tie Don Mills and the zoo?

Give me a break. Scarborough has been getting screwed over with transit because transit has been built elsewhere first and the kitty usually runs out by the time they get around to Scarborough. And when Scarborough does go first, it's usually as a lab rat for failing experiments (see Scarborough RT).

This plan might actually some semblance of meeting some needs in Scarborough. At least it finally prioritizes mobility as a concept, rather than employing transit as a socio-economic development tool.

I will bet money that this plan, if built, even without Sheppard, will do quite well in Scarborough.

BTW...stop your caterwauling and count how many transit stops there are in the East and the West. You'll be surprised. Don't forget about the TYSSE.

 

[lafard]

I count 15 stations on Leslie and east, and 11 on Dufferin and west. The rest are "central".

The TYSSE adds 5 to "west" - with a caveat I state later.

Eglinton adds 5 west and 8 east. Closes the gap somewhat, in the most likely scenario. Sans Sheppard, 2 concessions out from Yonge that's 21 west, 23 east

Add the Sheppard line that's 4 more stations for the east either way, and 0 for west.
= 27-21 for the east
Net gain is 10 for the west end, and 8 for the east, possibly 12 - though if we're going to start including the TYSSE stations in the 905 then we have to ponder whether the westward-skewed GTA - and Toronto itself - means we should move our east-vs-west end boundaries to the west to reflect that. In that case, the East definitely wins.

In reality, all three suburban boroughs are losing a lot with this proposal.

 

[kEiThZ]

Indeed, if all the funding is going to Eglinton and SRT anyway, it would be more sensible to save some on Eglinton by settling for street median between Don Mills and Kennedy, and apply the savings to extend the Danforth subway to STC. That configuration would cost about same, but would be more sustainable and easier to navigate.

Agreed. I just don't get it. What is gained by joining the SRT to Eglinton? Most of those transferees are bound for destinations south of Bloor. They'll either keep transferring at Kennedy (in which case they gain nothing) or they'll transfer at Eglinton (which will only provide marginal relief to Y/B because they'll be relatively few people).

Absolutely. Moreover, Eglinton from Don Mills to Yonge might be under pressure itself, trying to transport a fair number of Scarborough residents, plus people boarded on Eglinton itself, plus those transferred from the Lawrence East and Don Mills bus routes.

Exactly. I don't think their analyses have taken joining the SRT and Eglinton into account. Under Transit City, when Scarborough residents were forced to transfer at Kennedy, the majority would have taken Bloor-Danforth subway. Now, just enough of them will stay on to crowd up that line in short order. I have a feeling they're going to need those extra 50 LRVs sooner than they think.

But despite all those shortcomings, I'd like to see Eglinton construction progressing ASAP; just to reduce the risk of the funding being trimmed after the provincial elections.

Agreed. I actually don't believe Hudak will touch Eglinton, if there's shovels in the ground. The GTA today is not the GTA of the 90s. It's a vote rich battleground where transport, transit and traffic are important issues.