Toronto ZEN King West | 103.02m | 31s | CentreCourt | IBI Group

I just got back from Brisbane/Gold Coast and the lower standards in Toronto hit me like a ton of bricks. The biggest discrepancy is in the public realm but their high-rises are noticeably nicer too. This one might get a pass by Australians (just barely) but it would have a tough time selling... and Queensland is considered a fairly 'bogan, unsophisticated' state.

Everything new that I saw in Queensland had a ton more style, flair, beauty. I've always known that we have a penchant for boring drab everything but it was still a downer seeing some smaller supposedly more provincial city like Brisbane do so much better. Why are we so hopeless at design? It's mind boggling.
 
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ProjectEnd said:
Nah. Everything above the the podium is subtly good. Shocking that they permitted that grade interaction (or lack thereof)...
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What do you like about it? The black or charcoal colour is nice, but it's just another rectilinear grid facade with overbearing proportions. It doesn't deliver on any particularly interesting patterns in the mullions or balconies. I don't think it'll age gracefully.
 
isaidso said:
I just got back from Brisbane/Gold Coast and the lower standards in Toronto hit me like a ton of bricks. The biggest discrepancy is in the public realm but their high-rises are noticeably nicer too. This one might get a pass by Australians (just barely) but it would have a tough time selling... and Queensland is considered a fairly 'bogan, unsophisticated' state.

Everything new that I saw in Queensland had a ton more style, flair, beauty. I've always known that we have a penchant for boring drab everything but it was still a downer seeing some smaller supposedly more provincial city like Brisbane do so much better. Why are we so hopeless at design? It's mind boggling.
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I noticed the same thing when visiting Mexico City. Namely, the use of materials was way above the shite that developers in Canada use. This stood true even for middle-income residential projects in less-appealing areas. I'm still unsure why Canada lags so far behind other countries that have lower avg. incomes when it comes to quality of middle and upper-middle income builds.

Maybe in the case of Mexico it has more to do with the cost of labor than anything, but even countries with high labor costs (Australia, Western Europe) use much higher quality materials in their builds.

It could just boil down to North American pragmatism which values "good enough" for just about everything
 
goodcitywhenfinished said:
I noticed the same thing when visiting Mexico City. Namely, the use of materials was way above the shite that developers in Canada use. This stood true even for middle-income residential projects in less-appealing areas. I'm still unsure why Canada lags so far behind other countries that have lower avg. incomes when it comes to quality of middle and upper-middle income builds.

Maybe in the case of Mexico it has more to do with the cost of labor than anything, but even countries with high labor costs (Australia, Western Europe) use much higher quality materials in their builds.

It could just boil down to North American pragmatism which values "good enough" for just about everything
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Your last sentence sums up our culture.
 
goodcitywhenfinished said:
I noticed the same thing when visiting Mexico City. Namely, the use of materials was way above the shite that developers in Canada use. This stood true even for middle-income residential projects in less-appealing areas. I'm still unsure why Canada lags so far behind other countries that have lower avg. incomes when it comes to quality of middle and upper-middle income builds.

Maybe in the case of Mexico it has more to do with the cost of labor than anything, but even countries with high labor costs (Australia, Western Europe) use much higher quality materials in their builds.

It could just boil down to North American pragmatism which values "good enough" for just about everything
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Toronto in particular is an incredibly pragmatic place. Perhaps surprising to people now, but Toronto's history up till very recently has been blue collar industrial. We may have transformed into a white collar global city today but the culture still largely views design, architecture, beauty as frivolous and a waste of money. Huge swaths of our population still have no appreciation for such things (notice the uproar over the Yonge subway extension stations) and can't tell the difference between a Breville toaster and one made by SMEG. Even if they can tell, it's not important to them. A culture is a very hard thing to change. Refinement and a desire for the nicer things in life requires 1-2 generations of affluence. If Toronto's move up the ladder continues the culture will change here .....but will likely take decades.

It's much the same in most of Canada but not everywhere. Despite being poorer than Toronto, Montreal quite predictably puts a higher premium on design. I notice it immediately every time I visit. It was Canada's alpha city for most of our history. It was the centre of Canada economically, politically, and culturally. It was also where Canada's establishment resided. That's largely moved elsewhere now but that penchant for nice things remains part of Montreal's culture. If you're used to things being of a certain standard you don't suddenly demand less just because the city isn't as prominent as it used to be.

We do lots of things very very well in Canada, but we just don't have the same level of refinement one sees in other parts of the world. It's interesting that a New World nation like Australia didn't mirror us in this respect. It's also interesting that significantly poorer nations like Mexico also do better.
 
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junctionist said:
What do you like about it? The black or charcoal colour is nice, but it's just another rectilinear grid facade with overbearing proportions. It doesn't deliver on any particularly interesting patterns in the mullions or balconies. I don't think it'll age gracefully.
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I'm a fan of its cleanliness and simplicity. I'm not sure how CentreCourt got around TGS to be able to do as much glazing as they've done here, but it's impressive nevertheless. I'm generally fine with simple, well-detailed buildings - of which, outside the terrible interaction with Strachan - this is.
ushahid said:
we are mass producing condos.
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Yeah, that's kind of the point...
 
The interaction with Strachan is mostly due to how the City / Metrolinx treat the road. It's technically a bridge structure that starts basically at East Liberty going north, so they don't want structures abutting it with entrances onto the sidewalk. So a blank wall it is.

Centrecourt originally didn't even want to provide retail on East Liberty here either though, and last minute some space was secured by the city.
 
isaidso said:
Toronto in particular is an incredibly pragmatic place. Perhaps surprising to people now, but Toronto's history up till very recently has been blue collar industrial. We may have transformed into a white collar global city today but the culture still largely views design, architecture, beauty as frivolous and a waste of money. Huge swaths of our population still have no appreciation for such things (notice the uproar over the Yonge subway extension stations) and can't tell the difference between a Breville toaster and one made by SMEG. Even if they can tell, it's not important to them. A culture is a very hard thing to change. Refinement and a desire for the nicer things in life requires 1-2 generations of affluence. If Toronto's move up the ladder continues the culture will change here .....but will likely take decades.

It's much the same in most of Canada but not everywhere. Despite being poorer than Toronto, Montreal quite predictably puts a higher premium on design. I notice it immediately every time I visit. It was Canada's alpha city for most of our history. It was the centre of Canada economically, politically, and culturally. It was also where Canada's establishment resided. That's largely moved elsewhere now but that penchant for nice things remains part of Montreal's culture. If you're used to things being of a certain standard you don't suddenly demand less just because the city isn't as prominent as it used to be.

We do lots of things very very well in Canada, but we just don't have the same level of refinement one sees in other parts of the world. It's interesting that a New World nation like Australia didn't mirror us in this respect. It's also interesting that significantly poorer nations like Mexico also do better.
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This is exactly my observation. Well put!
I do observe an evolution in this city towards an appreciation of nicer things, but you're quite right, it takes time.
 
isaidso said:
Toronto in particular is an incredibly pragmatic place. Perhaps surprising to people now, but Toronto's history up till very recently has been blue collar industrial. We may have transformed into a white collar global city today but the culture still largely views design, architecture, beauty as frivolous and a waste of money. Huge swaths of our population still have no appreciation for such things (notice the uproar over the Yonge subway extension stations) and can't tell the difference between a Breville toaster and one made by SMEG. Even if they can tell, it's not important to them. A culture is a very hard thing to change. Refinement and a desire for the nicer things in life requires 1-2 generations of affluence. If Toronto's move up the ladder continues the culture will change here .....but will likely take decades.

It's much the same in most of Canada but not everywhere. Despite being poorer than Toronto, Montreal quite predictably puts a higher premium on design. I notice it immediately every time I visit. It was Canada's alpha city for most of our history. It was the centre of Canada economically, politically, and culturally. It was also where Canada's establishment resided. That's largely moved elsewhere now but that penchant for nice things remains part of Montreal's culture. If you're used to things being of a certain standard you don't suddenly demand less just because the city isn't as prominent as it used to be.

We do lots of things very very well in Canada, but we just don't have the same level of refinement one sees in other parts of the world. It's interesting that a New World nation like Australia didn't mirror us in this respect. It's also interesting that significantly poorer nations like Mexico also do better.
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I feel like the disdain for extravagance is something uniquely Anglo-Protestant (with no offense intended). "Beauty for the sake of beauty" in the Anglican/Presbyterian mentality is seen as a needless frill. Of course, you have exceptions like Australia where perhaps the climate makes everyone somewhat "sunnier" in temperament.

It's interesting that you mentioned Montreal as a city with more taste or "class", which is understandable since it has a much deeper cultural history than many other parts of Canada. I'd also like to add Vancouver to the list. Though much of their architectural design is similarly "bland", there seems to be a certain (hard to explain) sense of "sleekness" or "refinement" in the execution that stems perhaps from a certain "Asian nouveau-riche" influence.

Again, not trying to express racism, simply an observation.
 
Sun Apr 5, 2020


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The building is beautiful but I wish it added a bit more pizazz to the area. There is nothing different or unique here yet.

Novus across the street is turning out nicely. I think the retail component will be interesting here....
 
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