Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Disparishun]

In ways the megaterminal is bizarre but in others not. TTC routes 11, 97, 98, 7, 53, and 60 would likely terminate there as would YRT routes 2, 5 (?), 23, 77, 88, 91, 99, and 340. I suspect Finch's other northern routes would be redistributed to Royal Orchard (route 3) and RHC Stns.

Interesting. There are a lot of routes there. TTC 53 and 60 would certainly terminate at Steeles subway! So would others. But it bears some thinking, especially given that there is nothing special about Steeles apart from the giant bus station (i.e. it is not a transfer point), although presumably the giant bus station is itself the justification for terminating routes there. But nonetheless:

One theme is whether routes need to terminate at Steeles simply because Steeles is the municipal boundary. The answer in many cases may be yes, on account of the giant bus terminal, but one hopes that the agencies involved, or else Metrolinx, would give it some thought where there is no benefit and not doing so improves service or connectivity elsewhere. The relationship between TTC 97 and YRT 99 is a good example -- they're basically the same route handed off between two transit agencies, so it would be nice to enable those travelling across the municipal boundary to avoid a transfer, using whatever fare harmonization scheme will have been adopted for the subway itself. I imagine there are some differences in daytime frequency and overnight service and so forth, but you'd think there would be an opportunity to combine these routes. The same, on a smaller scale, with TTC 11 and YRT 91.

Another theme is what happens at subway stations that have no bus bays. The 2 and 5 and 77 are good examples re: Clark. I'd think you'd want the 5, in particular, to just rove back and forth on Clark all day -- better, consider combining the 2 and 5 to create an east-west route that is municipality-agnostic. Similar situation for 77 re: Clark subway, though not sure whether that line will be rethought altogether with the new subway extensions, which will surely affect demand in both Brampton and Vaughan. I suppose the answer is that they will all head to Steeles, but it seems to me like that is generating useless road traffic.

A third theme, brought up by routes like YRT 23 and 88 and TTC 7, is the relationship between the new subway stations and existing hubs like the Promenade Terminal. [It would be sort of nice from an urban design standpoint if they created a building with a cafe or something at the Promenade Terminal (ditto for others, like Vaughan Mills).] You can either have each of these buses run through the Promenade Terminal en route to a subway, or you can have them terminate there and create a much more frequent connection between the Terminal and a subway station. (The closest, again, being, Clark -- see above. Again, Steeles instead?)

The problem lies both in the failure of Toronto's own municipal gov't to thrive for better than LRT for the area's that meet the threshold for HRT operation eg. Eglinton, Don Mills, innercity corridors; and in the exuberant cost to construct underground transit lines in Toronto compared to Madrid, Montreal or other places that are proactively expanding their networks.

Exactly.

 

[Disparishun]

Well I can tell you from now that the majority of York Region would like to have nothing to do with Scarborough

???

 

[nfitz]

???

Yeah, a bizarre comment - especially given he was talking about Pape Station - which is closer to Yonge than it is to Scarborough!

And given the state of governance up there - seems that to become mayor of one of those York Region towns, yet another Vaughan mayor has been charged.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The ridiculously oversized Steeles bus terminal is ridiculously oversized partially to leave room for YRT to create a half dozen or more new routes (where these new routes will go, who knows). They could easily combine two infrequent routes into one bus bay but they won't so long as they're getting a blank cheque to build a ginormous underground terminal underneath parking lots. If TTC/YRT system integration occurs in even a minimal way, a good dozen bays at the Steeles station will be left totally unused. Even if small terminals (say, Leslie sized) were built at stations like Clark, adding a bit of cost, a vast sum could be saved by reducing the size of the underground monstrosity at Steeles, perhaps reducing the need for 3 ramps and the tens of millions of dollars of property acquisitions required to build these ramps. I've talked to several people from the city/TTC/YRT and the best reason for the oversized Steeles terminal they gave was, basically, that the computer model said there should be that many - no actual person sat down with pencil and paper and ran realistic numbers as to which routes would use which bays. But why should they? They're only spending $300M on Steeles station...

 

[xtremesniper]

???

Yeah, a bizarre comment - especially given he was talking about Pape Station - which is closer to Yonge than it is to Scarborough!

And given the state of governance up there - seems that to become mayor of one of those York Region towns, yet another Vaughan mayor has been charged.

To clarify, and to simplify, no one from York Region is going to be willing to make a stop-and-go trip all the way down to Danforth, especially if they'd have to transfer again to continue their journey. People like the fact that their initial journey of transfers is short, but once they're on the subway (at no more south than Sheppard), the train will take them to their destination.

What I'm making a point to is that you're going to have a tough time converting drivers to give up their cars only to have to travel such a messy route into downtown. It's much more straight forward in many people's minds to just travel west to Yonge, and then south all the way.

I know too many people who don't know street names or what direction is what. Things need to be as simple as possible. Taking them on a zig-zag isn't simple.

 

[Disparishun]

What I'm making a point to is that you're going to have a tough time converting drivers to give up their cars only to have to travel such a messy route into downtown. It's much more straight forward in many people's minds to just travel west to Yonge, and then south all the way.

Well! That is where we convert the RH GO line into the North-South Express (connections to Finch Stubway Bypass near today's Old Cummer, Sheppard subway at Leslie/Oriole, Eglinton LRT, and some vague downtownish point, all before Union), clearly. Perhaps we can use LRT technology.

 

[Second_in_pie]

To clarify, and to simplify, no one from York Region is going to be willing to make a stop-and-go trip all the way down to Danforth, especially if they'd have to transfer again to continue their journey. People like the fact that their initial journey of transfers is short, but once they're on the subway (at no more south than Sheppard), the train will take them to their destination.

What I'm making a point to is that you're going to have a tough time converting drivers to give up their cars only to have to travel such a messy route into downtown. It's much more straight forward in many people's minds to just travel west to Yonge, and then south all the way.

I know too many people who don't know street names or what direction is what. Things need to be as simple as possible. Taking them on a zig-zag isn't simple.

That's a good point, and is why I think it will be important for Go to improve their service substantially (most importantly on the Stouffville and Georgeown lines.) Go provides a very fast trip downtown, and you can even take your car part way, then hop on the train for the rest of the trip down. I'm kind of appalled at Metrolinx's timelines for express service on certain lines, including the lack of plans for express service on the Souffville line (simply up to Markham or Mount Joy.)

 

[RedRocket191]

TI'm kind of appalled at Metrolinx's timelines for express service on certain lines, including the lack of plans for express service on the Souffville line (simply up to Markham or Mount Joy.)

The only fundamental difference between Regional Rail and Express Rail as defined in the RTP is the frequency of trains. If there's a benefit case to justify X trains per hour then it will get X trains per hour.

 

[marcus_a_j]

Kinda related to the Yonge extension

Transit hubs to shape urban pocket in Markham

May 25, 2009 04:30 AM

Christopher Hume

It's a long way from California to Markham, but not for Peter Calthorpe, who has made the trip to design what could be the most vital project of his career.

The influential San Francisco architect, author, planner and co-founder of the Congress of New Urbanism calls this job "the highest manifestation of transit-oriented development I have been involved in."

He's referring to Langstaff, a new-style urban community proposed for a 57-hectare site south of Highway 7 between Yonge St. and Bayview Ave.

The scheme, approved by Markham council last week, will be highrise, mixed-use and pedestrian-friendly. Organized around transit – new subway lines and expanded bus service – Langstaff represents the new face of suburbia, which is no suburbia at all.

In other words, it is urban.

"We've had a 50-year experiment with sprawl," Calthorpe argues. "Now it's over. Everything's changing. There's a huge demographic shift happening. If you include externalities and eliminate subsidies, sprawl is not affordable. The key to unlocking the potential is transit."

But as Calthorpe also points out, successful transit is regional transit. That's surely true at Langstaff. Cut off by hydro easements, highways, railway tracks and cemeteries, the missing connections to the external world can only be created through transit. Extending the Yonge subway to Hwy. 7 is critical to the project, as are the locations of the new stations.

"If you want to get people out of cars," says Calthorpe, "you've got to get them close to transit. And transit must be there to support walkability, not the other way around. Destinations have to be nearby."

The Langstaff master plan shows a community laid out in small blocks on an east-west axis. A strip of parkland runs down the centre, divided into sections by a grid of short, narrow streets. Buildings range from mid-rise to highrise, townhouses to towers, much like City Place in downtown Toronto.

A density of 360 units per hectare will be typical; residents will presumably hold many of the 23,000 jobs based in Langstaff. Two retail clusters will be centred around transit hubs, and the CN track to the south will be covered.

"This will have the kind of urbanism you get in a city," Calthorpe says. He projects that "65 per cent of trips will be transit/walking and only 35 per cent by car."

"The consumer is a smart consumer now," notes Sam Balsamo, whose firm, Condor Properties, owns a portion of the Langstaff land. "We embrace the Ontario Growth Plan. We want to build a community that isn't your typical suburban community, a community that's walkable and transit oriented."

Speaking of Premier Dalton McGuinty's Growth Plan, Calthorpe calls it "the best in North America right now ... the standard these days."

Adopted several years ago, the legislation sets out where development may and may not occur. Though some have complained it doesn't go far enough, the Growth Plan represents the province's first attempt to stop sprawl.

Because of the size of the grand plan, Langstaff will be developed in phases, each contingent upon the one before. Densities can be adjusted according to demand, and to fit with transit capacity, which lies at the heart of things.

It remains to be seen how the bureaucracy, let alone the market, will respond to Markham's new urban face. Not everyone will be pleased to see the shift from cars to transit; but better get used to it: This is what the future looks like.

Not to say cars won't continue to be an essential part of North American life; it means they will be one element of a more balanced transportation system comprised of many parts.

But Langstaffians will also enjoy one of urbanity's greatest gifts, proximity.

Link

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

It's not just "kinda related."
I'd say it's the raison d'etre for the extension (and vice versa) which is something some of the die hard, pro-416ers fail to appreciate, I think.

 

[J3lo]

Well said. As much as downtown desperately needs the improvement of its transit, when you analysize the growth and ridership statistics, the ridership at Finsh and Kennedy rival though at the busiest interchange in downtown like St George, Union, and Yonge-Bloor. They are all coming from the suburbs and the 905 area. And they are the areas growing the fastest in GTA, over 6% compared to the 1% in Toronto.

It's a matter of long-term vs short-term vision...

 

[Ansem]

Well said. As much as downtown desperately needs the improvement of its transit, when you analysize the growth and ridership statistics, the ridership at Finsh and Kennedy rival though at the busiest interchange in downtown like St George, Union, and Yonge-Bloor. They are all coming from the suburbs and the 905 area. And they are the areas growing the fastest in GTA, over 6% compared to the 1% in Toronto.

It's a matter of long-term vs short-term vision...

If the yonge line is already overcrowded and all you want is the Yonge extension, how in the world do you expect the current network to take extra commuters?

The only result will be that York commuter gets to comfortably sit down while Toronto Commuters lets 6 trains pass before being able to squease themselves in.

**Please...Enough with the short turn trains at Finch or Steeles. Montreal are doing it because of the Laval extension and it doens't relieve enough to satisfy Montrealers. Of course Laval commuters are thrilled...

Yonge extension should come after:

-New trains with more capacity
-7 wagon
-New signalization system
-DRL

Then, I'll be for it.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Ansem, I'd add Richmond Hill Go service expansion to that. More trains, express service, and possibly fare integration or electrification. Then I will actually want the Yonge extension.

 

[xtremesniper]

Yonge extension should come after:

-New trains with more capacity
-7 wagon
-New signalization system
-DRL

Then, I'll be for it.

You realize that by the time the extension is opened, they would have already implemented the new signal system, and the new trains with more capacity which would also mean 7 wagons, from my understanding.

The only thing on that list that isn't planned for launch WITH the extension is the DRL.

 

[Disparishun]

The only result will be that York commuter gets to comfortably sit down while Toronto Commuters lets 6 trains pass before being able to squease themselves in.

That would be crazy. It would be much better to take people out of the subway and stick them in cars on roads, so that the remaining subway riders can go in style.

In fact, why don't we just introduce a quota system to the subway, sort of like we do with parking lots? Sorry, there's no room for you in the system. Get thee to an automobile!

Ansem, I'd add Richmond Hill Go service expansion to that. More trains, express service, and possibly fare integration or electrification. Then I will actually want the Yonge extension.

Actually, we need both now. RH GO should be LRT-ized rather than GO-expanded, though.

Stations at Finch, Sheppard, Eglinton, and downtown should be realigned or created in order to interconnection with east-west subway and LRT lines.