Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Chuck]

FYI - here is what Vaughan is doing:
http://www.yorkregion.com/article/89745

And here is what Markham is doing:
http://www.yorkregion.com/article/82661

When you add up the numbers from those two articles, about 65,000 new people are planned to live along Yonge between Steeles and Langstaff. Add in Richmond Hill's plans, and that number could grow to 80,000. Among growth nodes, only Mississauga City Centre will be larger.

 

[Disparishun]

When you add up the numbers from those two articles, about 65,000 new people are planned to live along Yonge between Steeles and Langstaff. Add in Richmond Hill's plans, and that number could grow to 80,000.

I think we have to assume that much of what will come is not yet announced. All four corners of Yonge-Steeles and the Roy Foss lands are the most obvious examples of development deferred. There is much else to come (some of the precursors to which, at least in those parts adjacent to the Thornhill Village area north of Arnold, are being hashed out).

 

[xtremesniper]

And it's a steadily densifying area of town, too. And -- drumroll -- hence the beauty of rejigging the RH GO line as a N-S Express. Most of the rights of way are already there, so it'd be a lot cheaper than many other options. With stops at the Finch LRT/bus at Leslie, the Sheppard subway, the Eglinton LRT, and downtown before Union, I think you'd serve quite a lot of the demand and alleviate the congestion on the Yonge line for far cheaper than, say, the DRL (which is, nonetheless needed) will cost.

I agree that the RH GO line needs improvements, and that it would take off some congestion from Yonge... However, I'm not too sure how much it would service those in the area we were talking about. It would make more sense to develop a better connection system to Unionville GO.

There already is a route in place that does kind of what I'm talking about. YRT route 202 (http://yrt.ca/maps/navigators/202.pdf) but it has many problems with it. Notably, the fact that it only operates in the ridiculously early hours of the morning, which supposedly is due to the fact that they are timing the arrivals to the station with the departures of the trains (but what about those who just want to use a 407 express bus to York U for example?), and also the fact that it slowly journeys through all of residential Unionville before arriving at the station, which would drive most people crazy. For it to take about 30 minutes to get from Rodick and Woodbine to Unionville GO is kinda silly, considering it takes most people less than that to get from the same area to Finch Station by car.

I've written to YRT to improve this route or create better connections but they don't see the need right now. Only god knows why. Many people would prefer taking a GO bus express to York University vs taking Viva to save about 30 minutes of travel time, but if it's going to take 30 more minutes just to get to the station in the first place, the benefit is lost.

 

[unimaginative2]

I was reading one of the Richmond Hill planning presentations that has a map of a potential northward subway extension (Go to Page 14) from Richmond Hill Centre. It shows a dotted line running north off the map, with a stop called "Carville Station" adjacent to Hillcrest Mall.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I was reading one of the Richmond Hill planning presentations that has a map of a potential northward subway extension (Go to Page 14) from Richmond Hill Centre. It shows a dotted line running north off the map, with a stop called "Carville Station" adjacent to Hillcrest Mall.

The line is being designed with the idea of a probable extension to 16th/Carrville. The tail tracks are going to go a good way up that way anyway BUT it's not in the initial plans nor the funding request to Metrolinx. It's certainly on the radar, however.

And that OMB case cited by Disparishun is never-ending. The owner wants to build a seniors complex across the street from a school and in excess of the height etc restrictions that Vaughan and Markham just settled on. He also wants to move the heritage house that used to house Brack Electronics. I don't know when that thing will even end...(The upshot is that there is huge intensification planned for Yonge but that stretch of historic Thornhill has more severe restrictions which this guy is trying to get around...)

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The line is being designed with the idea of a probable extension to 16th/Carrville. The tail tracks are going to go a good way up that way anyway BUT it's not in the initial plans nor the funding request to Metrolinx. It's certainly on the radar, however.

Probable, no. Possible, yes.

 

[Disparishun]

And that OMB case cited by Disparishun is never-ending. The owner wants to build a seniors complex across the street from a school and in excess of the height etc restrictions that Vaughan and Markham just settled on. He also wants to move the heritage house that used to house Brack Electronics. I don't know when that thing will even end...(The upshot is that there is huge intensification planned for Yonge but that stretch of historic Thornhill has more severe restrictions which this guy is trying to get around...)

Yeah ... it's a good example of the clash of NIMBYism that we may see once the intensification really gets going. Is that plaza really adjacent to any of Old Thornhill, besides the one house? If I recall correctly behind it are basically monster homes.

 

[Amphibius]

The numbers are there now. You were asking about something different -- density along Yonge Street.

Nope. We should be firing on all cylinders. Your beggar-thy-neighbour approach to transit planning doesn't work.

This isn't about east Markham, which just isn't relevant to the Yonge Subway Extension. And yes, commuters desire actual points off Yonge St.

Run that by me again? Bathurst LRT? What route [EDIT: i.e. what endpoints for this planned Bathurst LRT]?

For "Bathurst" you mean "Dufferin", and for "Vaughan City Centre" you mean "one of the new stations on the Spadina extension", right?

Huh? No. Steeles makes very little sense as a terminus -- how did you arrive at the conclusion that it did? Continuing 4 km north to the GO/VIVA-YRT terminal at Hwy 7/407 will serve far better.

First of all, what I'm proposing is the epitome of firing on all cylinders. I never said we shouldn't extend the Yonge Subway. In the history of all Toronto subway extensions though, they have been built in PHASES. Examine the history of the University-Spadina and Bloor-Danforth Lines' expansions. YUS has seen four additions plus an infill, same number as B-D. If Phase 1.0 were to theoretically stop at Steeles Avenue and comprise the below-grade megaterminal AND be greeted by an LRT corridor right across the platform; running up the median of Yonge St, not only stopping at RHC but continuing onwards to 19th/Gamble; then a significant effort towards efficient rapid transit through Thornhill/Richmond Hill would still be met. And this wouldn't pervent an extension to Highway 7 in the future either when demand warrants it.

I'm hearing all y'all are saying about riders west of Kennedy that's go to RHC, but there's no reason why a Don Mills LRT couldn't route straight into the Beaver Creek area (post-fare integration YRT/TTC reality of course) and a Warden LRT (TCII) to route directly into Downtown Markham, even wying into Unionville Stn. So if Don Mills feeds into the DRL from Eglinton, that's another viable alternate route Markhamites could utilize in order to get downtown. So I get don't the Beggar-Thy-Neighbour analogy since all these extensions (even stopping at Steeles Ave) are geared to do waaaaaaay more for York Region than it does Torontonians, with less residents to serve yet costing the 416 folk more in raised costs-to-ride.

As for Bathurst, think: Transit City Phase II. I came up with the idea when people kept suggesting a Sheppard West subway extension to intercept Bathurst, the only valid intermediate stop. Seeing as Bathurst/Steeles, Bathurst/Finch and Bathurst/Sheppard have decent high-rise devlopments surrounding those intersections and Bathurst/Centre has all that plus a highly-trafficked commercial-retail nexus, it kinda makes sense. U2 and others talked about it in the other thread too, that essentially the 160 becomes a LRT route through to Wilson Stn then continue onwards southbound along Dufferin Street to the CNE. The 7 bus then only operates between Bloor and Wilson reducing waittimes. Obviously cusomers wouldn't necessarily stay on-board the entire trip duration given the length, but it'd certainly reduce travel times between Promenade, other LRT crosstowns and the subway.

While I disagree with the VCC extension ("City" sounds better than "Corporate", so sue me) it's already in the process of being built (has anything expropiation/digging wise occured on the Vaughan side yet, BTW?) and further puts limitations on just how many long-haul commuters a RHC extension would net; since all Bramalea, Gore, Kleinburg, Woodbridge, Pine Valley, Maple and Concord commuters would feed into it. So I stand by my statement of west of the Promenade residents feeding into the Spadina subway.

Which leads into my last point:

You asked me why Steeles and then made a case on how weak it'd be as a terminii. Okay, then why is a 30 bus-bay, $195 million dollar state-of-the-art underground bus and train station facility being built there? Why is it that more bus routes would converge at this point than all of north-of-Steeles section which would only get mainly VIVA routes? The undevelopable heritage community of Old Thornhill which lies smack in the middle of the subway's path is a valid reason to question the need for this, as evidenced by the whopping 2.2km gap in-between Clark and Royal Orchard Stn, the latter of which may not even be built right away, so add in another km lapse. So basically, IMO, we are attempting to do with the Yonge Subway something that isn't the true orientation nor purpose of metro subway lines: re-create a GO train corridor underground. And at $300M/km to boot. Meanwhile riders trying to board trains through Toronto suffer. That's why I'm skeptical about meandering further and further into the suburbs.

So in conclusion, I shudder at the thought of evey other compatible preexisting, densely populated cluster of high-rise residential & commerical buildings all across the GTA that isn't getting its own multibillion dollar subway line... because by the line of thinking I've happened across here, they'd be all worthy and justified to get one.

 

[xtremesniper]

You asked me why Steeles and then made a case on how weak it'd be as a terminii. Okay, then why is a 30 bus-bay, $195 million dollar state-of-the-art underground bus and train station facility being built there? Why is it that more bus routes would converge at this point than all of north-of-Steeles section which would only get mainly VIVA routes?

The RHC station would get Viva, GO, and TTC converging on one spot, and Viva ridership is pretty significant.

But in terms of why there is being such a huge bus bay being developed at Steeles, that's because right now a lot of routes either terminate at Steeles or travel on Steeles and then turn south to go to Finch Station. So to eliminate that extra routeage southbound, they would just terminate at Steeles (like some routes already do) and save the other routes the effort of going south to Finch. That, if anything, is doing much more for Torontonians than York Regionites, because no one in York Region likes or even wants to have to travel to this imaginary border, Steeles, just to make a decent connection for the remainder of their trip to their destination.

 

[Disparishun]

...

I agree that the massive megaterminal at Steeles is bizarre. I also agree that spending billions on LRT from Bathurst/7 and from Don Mills/7 all the way south would change the demand profile for other north-south routes. I disagree that a 2.3 km gap between subway stations, en route to a major terminus, constitutes a GO train line. I also disagree that the existence of a VCC subway stop means medium- to long-haul subway users living between Bathurst and, say, Dufferin will forego Yonge for Jane.

So basically, IMO, we are attempting to do with the Yonge Subway something that isn't the true orientation nor purpose of metro subway lines: re-create a GO train corridor underground. And at $300M/km to boot. Meanwhile riders trying to board trains through Toronto suffer.

Beggar-thy-neighbour planning is planning that is premised on either/or ("should a Planned Community take precedence over Preexisting Density") , rather than firing on all cylinders (actually-existing proposals, not fantasy planning).

I do agree with that last sentence in the quote above, though. Riders throughout the Toronto area are none too happy. We need more, better transit. Beggar-thy-neighbourism won't solve it, mind you. Will Transit City?

So in conclusion, I shudder at the thought of evey other compatible preexisting, densely populated cluster of high-rise residential & commerical buildings all across the GTA that isn't getting its own multibillion dollar subway line...

Shudder no more. They'll generally do fine -- although if they are on a major arterial stretching just north of the terminus of a busy subway line, if that arterial is choked with standing-room traffic, and if said dense clusters are growing quickly, it may be worth thinking about extending that subway line.

 

[Amphibius]

I agree that the massive megaterminal at Steeles is bizarre. I also agree that spending billions on LRT from Bathurst/7 and from Don Mills/7 all the way south would change the demand profile for other north-south routes. I disagree that a 2.3 km gap between subway stations, en route to a major terminus, constitutes a GO train line. I also disagree that the existence of a VCC subway stop means medium- to long-haul subway users living between Bathurst and, say, Dufferin will forego Yonge for Jane.

Beggar-thy-neighbour planning is planning that is premised on either/or ("should a Planned Community take precedence over Preexisting Density") , rather than firing on all cylinders (actually-existing proposals, not fantasy planning).

I do agree with that last sentence in the quote above, though. Riders throughout the Toronto area are none too happy. We need more, better transit. Beggar-thy-neighbourism won't solve it, mind you. Will Transit City?

Shudder no more. They'll generally do fine -- although if they are on a major arterial stretching just north of the terminus of a busy subway line, if that arterial is choked with standing-room traffic, and if said dense clusters are growing quickly, it may be worth thinking about extending that subway line.

Well first of all, let me commend you for your calm and mannerly tone (unlike some people).

In ways the megaterminal is bizarre but in others not. TTC routes 11, 97, 98, 7, 53, and 60 would likely terminate there as would YRT routes 2, 5 (?), 23, 77, 88, 91, 99, and 340. I suspect Finch's other northern routes would be redistributed to Royal Orchard (route 3) and RHC Stns. So while it appears like there'll be a lot of vacant bus bays, ultimately it's a smart decision to remove the beehive of bus traffic coming in and out of the station away from one of the GTA's busiest intersections.

Provided the 88 bus winds up heading into Steeles Stn, the incentive may be there for a significant volume of Toronto-bound passengers from the Promenade area to end up taking Bathurst south rather than riding VIVA Purple northeast to RHC or westbound to VCC, more counterintuitive moves lest the 88's really infrequent. As for the Don Mills TC LRT line; if they're already planning to bring it up to the Markham border anyway, it'd be relatively easy just to continue it up Leslie into the Beaver Creek area, possibly even veering east along Hwy 7 through to Cornell, hence funneling the majority of eastern Markham commuter traffic down Don Mills and potentially into the Downtown Relief subway line. By doing so, less pressure is being placed upon YUS' existing carrying capacity which translates into more people from North York and Midtown being able to get on-board.

You're right though, 4kms of track through lower York Region isn't substantially bad, especially if in twenty years the area resembles Mississauga City Centre or similar satelite city sites. The problem lies both in the failure of Toronto's own municipal gov't to thrive for better than LRT for the area's that meet the threshold for HRT operation eg. Eglinton, Don Mills, innercity corridors; and in the exuberant cost to construct underground transit lines in Toronto compared to Madrid, Montreal or other places that are proactively expanding their networks. I'm also concerned about what quality of DRL will be receiving as virtually every community is stretching their hands out for overdue transit funding. The innercity may get shafted for a "cheaper" railside alignment instead.

I do however think that Transit City will be successful through parts of the inner suburbs (Scarborough, North York, northern Etobicoke). Ideally, if one continuous LRT line could snake east from the Scarborough Ctr (post- BD terminus completion, of course) through Centennial College and Malvern then swing back along Finch or Sheppard to and through the "stubway" ROW, then across to Downsview, then north through Finch West all the way over to Humber College... that would be fait accompli in terms of getting riders a one-seat POP right across the northern part of the 416.

 

[waterloowarrior]

Provided the 88 bus winds up heading into Steeles Stn, the incentive may be there for a significant volume of Toronto-bound passengers from the Promenade area to end up taking Bathurst south rather than riding VIVA Purple northeast to RHC or westbound to VCC, more counterintuitive moves lest the 88's really infrequent. As for the Don Mills TC LRT line; if they're already planning to bring it up to the Markham border anyway, it'd be relatively easy just to continue it up Leslie into the Beaver Creek area, possibly even veering east along Hwy 7 through to Cornell, hence funneling the majority of eastern Markham commuter traffic down Don Mills and potentially into the Downtown Relief subway line. By doing so, less pressure is being placed upon YUS' existing carrying capacity which translates into more people from North York and Midtown being able to get on-board.

I do however think that Transit City will be successful through parts of the inner suburbs (Scarborough, North York, northern Etobicoke). Ideally, if one continuous LRT line could snake east from the Scarborough Ctr (post- BD terminus completion, of course) through Centennial College and Malvern then swing back along Finch or Sheppard to and through the "stubway" ROW, then across to Downsview, then north through Finch West all the way over to Humber College... that would be fait accompli in terms of getting riders a one-seat POP right across the northern part of the 416.

Who is going to be making trips like that though... let's say you did the Cornell->7->Don Mills>Eglinton DRL station trip. At LRT speeds (using Sheppard's estimates), it will take you 1 hr 10 minutes just to get to Eglinton and you'd still need to get downtown on the DRL. the northern 416 one-seat ride would take around 1:45 or so.

 

[Amphibius]

Well, the idea isn't that one would necessarily ride the lines from start point to finish, but rather transfer off at whichever point's of greatest convenience for them (intermediate nodal areas, major N-S transit corridors). Per today's set up, 5 or 6 transfers are required and the commute could take twice as long easily. So with that in mind, considering the total length/duration of the proposed Finch West LRT alone, I'd say that 1:45 all the way from Humber College to Scarborough Centre via Malvern TC doesn't sound all that slow (grade-separation through several sections en route would further help reduce travel times as well).

As for the DRL/Don Mills LRT, let's say the subway kept naturally progressing up Don Mills Rd, the gap in-between Hwy 7/Beaver Creek and the metro would hence become increasingly narrowed. So one heading from Markham-Stoufville Hosp. to Don Mills-Sheppard along the LRT, using the same limited stop-spacings as VIVA Purple/Green, would correlate into a commuting trip of only 45 mins, probably less.

 

[xtremesniper]

Well I can tell you from now that the majority of York Region would like to have nothing to do with Scarborough, so sending them to Pape station or whatever to hop on the DRL is a dead-end idea. Don Mills or Finch Station, or GO. That's how it goes. The moment you dare suggest someone travel all the way to Danforth/Bloor, only to have to continue their trip on another line for another x minutes, you're going to get a lot of people giving you the finger and hopping in their cars. lol, just saying. It's not only the distance and the time, it's also the area.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The Clark-Royal Orchard gap is nowhere near 2.3km and is really not a gap at all. Clark's north entrance will be barely 1.5km from Royal Orchard's south entrance and in the middle is a whole lot of nothing and a ravine. Everyone south of John will walk to Clark, anyway. How many people live between John and the Don? 800? 1000? The area around Centre could achieve an impossible 100% transit mode share and it would still see less riders than Ellesmere.

Who is going to be making trips like that though... let's say you did the Cornell->7->Don Mills>Eglinton DRL station trip. At LRT speeds (using Sheppard's estimates), it will take you 1 hr 10 minutes just to get to Eglinton and you'd still need to get downtown on the DRL. the northern 416 one-seat ride would take around 1:45 or so.

Hell, the GO bus from Unionville to Union can take as little as 20 minutes...throw in 10 more minutes from Cornell and 10 more minutes of traffic and you're still saving over an hour.