Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[ehlow]

I see nothing wrong with the municipal border being the reason it stops at Steeles, if it does. The TTC is the Toronto Transit Commission, my understanding is that it's responsible for transit within Toronto. Yes I know the Vaughan extension already goes beyond, but it doesn't seem to me like it's the necessarily job of the TTC to get people from York Region to Toronto. I mean.. TTC operations are mainly funded by the taxpayers of Toronto, right? If York Region pays it's fair share of both capital costs & operations then that's fine I guess.

Sorry TJ.. but am I wrong to say that the TTC should serve Toronto?

Having said that, it seems like there are other reasons to stop at Steeles, innsertnamehere mentioned that benefits to cost ratio is highest there.

I wouldn't expect RH people to take GO to Leslie station, I'd expect them to take the bus to Steeles subway station as they do to Finch now.

 

[doady]

I see nothing wrong with the municipal border being the reason it stops at Steeles, if it does. The TTC is the Toronto Transit Commission, my understanding is that it's responsible for transit within Toronto. Yes I know the Vaughan extension already goes beyond, but it doesn't seem to me like it's the necessarily job of the TTC to get people from York Region to Toronto. I mean.. TTC operations are mainly funded by the taxpayers of Toronto, right? If York Region pays it's fair share of both capital costs & operations then that's fine I guess.

Sorry TJ.. but am I wrong to say that the TTC should serve Toronto?

I have no problem with TTC only serving Toronto, even ignoring Torontonians need to travel outside Toronto, if the Toronto is willing to forgo all the funding it receives from the rest of the province.

If Toronto wants transit for Toronto only and exclude everyone else then let Toronto fund transit all by itself. It is fair.

 

[BurlOak]

I can't imagine that cut-and-cover would be faster if tunnelling is an option.

What takes the most time, and costs the most money are the stations - which are already cut-and-cover. Tunnel boring itself is quick. It will be finished on Eglinton in 2016, and was finished on Spadina last year. The stations are finished 3-4 years later.

The stations take the most time and money and the stations, which are at the intersections, are the greatest cause of disruption during construction. If those stations were 10m deep instead of 20m, I could see large time and cost savings.

Edit: They also have to come up with a catchy name such as "Continuous Excavation" CE).

A TBM requires road closures for station headwalls, as well as for TBM launch and extraction sites. Then after the TBM rolls through, the extremely deep excavation then requires 3 or 4 years to complete.

CE on the other hand has a continuous excavation at shallow depth that requires a short moving road closure of a few weeks, with a shallow station construction similar to the TBM, but with a duration of only about 1, not 3 or4 years. CE also requires relatively smooth terrain which, thankfully, suits many areas of Toronto.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I can tell you hate the idea of not having a subway in the near future...What's wrong with taking the train to Union? Unless I'm mistaken, Bloor is not that far from Union by subway


Look...
I'll be reasonable...

Since the Province made it clear they had no money for it, if York Region taxpayers want to pay for their side of the extension with new taxes, I'm sure everyone will listen... Until then, I'm afraid that Vaughan Metropolitain Center "of the universe" is all York Region will be getting for a while

Let's be really honest here - can any one of the people on this board who support stopping the subway at Steeles admit that if the municipal border were at Highway 7 instead of Steeles, that we would not be discussing this at all? I'm going to put on the table that I 100% believe that, whether it's conscious or not, the ONLY argument anyone posits about stopping at Steeles boils down to "that's where Toronto ends." Maybe I'm setting up a straw man - because I think the border is utterly obsolete and has been for some time - but that's what I see, over and over again. Might as well leave it at Finch in that case, I say.

No lets completely be honest: you're both arguing for suburban extensions for largely the same reasons. To say Richmond Hill is more warrented the Scarborough is wrong, espcially since Scarborough is not less dense then Richmond Hill, infact all of the 905 is less dense then the city. At the same time, the ridership for Sheppard East is awful, and needs to improve. RHC and Clark will be empty most of the day two. This is a circular argument.

I see nothing wrong with the municipal border being the reason it stops at Steeles, if it does. The TTC is the Toronto Transit Commission, my understanding is that it's responsible for transit within Toronto. Yes I know the Vaughan extension already goes beyond, but it doesn't seem to me like it's the necessarily job of the TTC to get people from York Region to Toronto. I mean.. TTC operations are mainly funded by the taxpayers of Toronto, right? If York Region pays it's fair share of both capital costs & operations then that's fine I guess.

Sorry TJ.. but am I wrong to say that the TTC should serve Toronto?

Having said that, it seems like there are other reasons to stop at Steeles, innsertnamehere mentioned that benefits to cost ratio is highest there.

I wouldn't expect RH people to take GO to Leslie station, I'd expect them to take the bus to Steeles subway station as they do to Finch now.

I have no problem with TTC only serving Toronto, even ignoring Torontonians need to travel outside Toronto, if the Toronto is willing to forgo all the funding it receives from the rest of the province.

If Toronto wants transit for Toronto only and exclude everyone else then let Toronto fund transit all by itself. It is fair.

The TTC gets no funding from the anyone else but Toronto taxpayers. Ehlow you are not wrong at all.

 

[ehlow]

I have no problem with TTC only serving Toronto, even ignoring Torontonians need to travel outside Toronto, if the Toronto is willing to forgo all the funding it receives from the rest of the province.

If Toronto wants transit for Toronto only and exclude everyone else then let Toronto fund transit all by itself. It is fair.

That's how it already is... right? That's reality right now. 95-99% of TTC transit lines end within Toronto's borders. The only exceptions I can think of are the future Vaughan subway, the Eglinton bus goes into Mississauga for a bit, and the airport bus.

Just like Mississauga transit stays in Mississauga and York Region Transit mainly stays in York Region, and NYC's subway stays in NYC, it doesn't go into New Jersey (that's PATH's job).

The province pays 0% of the TTC's operating costs, but it does pay for a lot of capital costs for expansion projects, which is probably what you are referring to.

I'm pretty sure it's pretty normal for the state or province to fund a major cities' transit, like New York State funding NYC transit.

 

[ehlow]

So, in your New York people from the Bronx take commuter rail over to Queens to get on a subway to go to Manhattan instead of going straight south?

This is actually a great example. The Bronx & Queens is in New York City, so they have NYC subways & buses serving them.

New Jersey is right beside New York but isn't part of New York, so to get to NYC you have to take PATH and then transfer to the NYC subway.

People from Long Island outside NYC take commuter rail into NYC and transfer as well.

York Region is not part of Toronto. Sorry... it's part of the GTA, but not the City of Toronto, that's just reality.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

No lets completely be honest: you're both arguing for suburban extensions for largely the same reasons. To say Richmond Hill is more warrented the Scarborough is wrong, espcially since Scarborough is not less dense then Richmond Hill, infact all of the 905 is less dense then the city. At the same time, the ridership for Sheppard East is awful, and needs to improve. RHC and Clark will be empty most of the day two. This is a circular argument.

First of all, "Scarborough" appeared nowhere in my overly long text so I don't know what your point is. Second of all, you've got more straw men all over the place. Even if Scarborough is more dense than RH, so what? The subway only goes to the south end of RH and is mostly in Markham and Vaughan. And even then, are you actually suggesting that Scarborough is more dense, or more primed for density than Yonge Street? No chance.

It's good to know that all of the 905 is less dense than the city (I mean - even King City and Brampton and Niagara Falls are less dense than Toronto?!?! Cite your sources!) but you're really missing the entire point which is that development along Yonge is contiguous and there is no difference worth mentioning between Willowdale and Thornhill (which is more relevant than Richmond Hill, and certainly more relevant than Scarborough....)

Sheppard? Another straw man. We all know what wrong in planning and developing Sheppard. Sheppard isn't Yonge and a Yonge extension would have almost nothing in common with the new line built on Sheppard. If your crystal ball tells you RHC will be empty most of the day, that's good to know. So is Rosedale and I'm sure a lot of the stations on the BD - heck, Finch is pretty empty in the middle of the day so....I lost track - what was your point?

Which brings us to...

I see nothing wrong with the municipal border being the reason it stops at Steeles, if it does. The TTC is the Toronto Transit Commission, my understanding is that it's responsible for transit within Toronto. Yes I know the Vaughan extension already goes beyond, but it doesn't seem to me like it's the necessarily job of the TTC to get people from York Region to Toronto. I mean.. TTC operations are mainly funded by the taxpayers of Toronto, right? If York Region pays it's fair share of both capital costs & operations then that's fine I guess.

Sorry TJ.. but am I wrong to say that the TTC should serve Toronto?

WRONG is a rather strong word. So....obviously the TTC stands for TORONTO TRANSIT COMMISSION, so I'll solve that one easily for you: now it's called the GTA Transit Commission. That was easy. (It's a good thing they amalgamated the city in 1998 because it must have been frustrating before that to see those TORONTO buses and trains running out to Scarborough, Etobicoke, North York etc!)

Oh, but it's also "mainly funded by the taxpayers of Toronto." Well, that's trickier for me to solve with the wave of a wand but if your point is that "if you want regional transit, it should be regionally funded," I don't have a problem with that at all. It seems clear to me that we're headed towards regional funding (even if Wynne is doing it less agressively than Mlinx and Golden said she should) and we're heading towards regional fare integration too. I have no clue precisely how all that will work or how it will be divvied up but I'm sure we can come to an arrangement that will adequately fund things to your satisfaction. Obviously there are thousands and thousands of 905ers who pay TTC fares (and vice versa) but let's just leave that aside for simplicity's sake, yes?

Transit service will never improve in this region if every little municipality (including Toronto) funds and runs its own little fiefdom with no concern for what goes on across any given border. If you can't figure out seamless travel across Steeles, along the length of the densest, most important street in the province you're never going to solve any of the big problems. And, man, you didn't even advocate for LRT. You want YR residents to keep taking BUSES down YONGE STREET to Steeles? Congratulations, you've just eliminated 20,000 people who were going to live on Yonge Street or in RHC, who are now living in subdivisions on the other side of the greenbelt. They all love driving their SUVs 2 hours to work in Toronto.

Kidding aside, if your only concerns are fair funding and nomenclature, I think we can deal with those and then build the subway up to where it should go, without quibbling about outdated semantics.

This is actually a great example. The Bronx & Queens is in New York City, so they have NYC subways & buses serving them.

New Jersey is right beside New York but isn't part of New York, so to get to NYC you have to take PATH and then transfer to the NYC subway.

People from Long Island outside NYC take commuter rail into NYC and transfer as well.

York Region is not part of Toronto. Sorry... it's part of the GTA, but not the City of Toronto, that's just reality.

And who runs ALL those services? The METROPOLITAN Transit Authority. Not the "Manhattan Bus System" or "the New York Transit commission." Who funds the Long Island Railroad? Same deal. It's ALL THE SAME SYSTEM and, as you helpfully note, it crosses borders and even states! So people can take ONE TRAIN from way out at the end of Long Island, because that's what they want to do and need to do.

If I live in Queens, I can take a bus into Manhattan or an LIRR train or a subway (depending precisely where I'm coming from or going to). I don't have some guy in Manhattan telling me I live in the sticks so I should take an LIRR train to the edge of the East River and then a bus across the bridge and then, finally on the island of Manhattan, the right to get on a subway. I have OPTIONS and MULTIPLE MODES because NYC has a regional transit system!

The TTC serves ONE municipality. I don't know the precise count but I'm guessing the MTA serves 50 or more. And it's funded accordingly and named accordingly.

So, yes, you're quite right. It's an excellent example I made of how outdated thinking of something like "the Toronto Transit Commission" serving a tiny piece of a massive region is.

Much thanks.

 

[ehlow]

WRONG is a rather strong word. So....obviously the TTC stands for TORONTO TRANSIT COMMISSION, so I'll solve that one easily for you: now it's called the GTA Transit Commission. That was easy. (It's a good thing they amalgamated the city in 1998 because it must have been frustrating before that to see those TORONTO buses and trains running out to Scarborough, Etobicoke, North York etc!)

Well, the TTC served Metro Toronto, which included Scarborough, Etobicoke and North York.

Obviously there are thousands and thousands of 905ers who pay TTC fares (and vice versa) but let's just leave that aside for simplicity's sake, yes?

Good point. But it's still true that the TTC's operational subsidy is paid for by City of Toronto property taxes, at least currently.

Transit service will never improve in this region if every little municipality (including Toronto) funds and runs its own little fiefdom with no concern for what goes on across any given border. If you can't figure out seamless travel across Steeles, along the length of the densest, most important street in the province you'r never going to solve any of the big problems. And, man, you didn't even advocate for LRT. You want YR residents to keep taking BUSES down YONGE STREET to Steeles? Congratulations, you've just eliminated 20,000 people who were going to live on Yonge Street or in RHC, who are now living in subdivisions on the other side of the greenbelt. They all love driving their SUVs 2 hours to work in Toronto.

Kidding aside, if your only concerns are fair funding and nomenclature, I think we can deal with those and then build the subway up to where it should go, without quibbling about outdated semantics.

Fair enough. I'm convinced

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Well, the TTC served Metro Toronto, which included Scarborough, Etobicoke and North York.



Good point. But it's still true that the TTC's operational subsidy is paid for by City of Toronto property taxes, at least currently.



Fair enough. I'm convinced

I was being a bit glib about Toronto vs. Metro Toronto but the TTC was named after the old city. Of course it was funded and run by Metro after 1953 but it wasn't renamed the MTTC to reflect that and it's pretty clear, even today, that there are people in "Toronto" who don't think their city includes those inner suburbs, even 60 years later - still, everyone understood the TTC ran to North York because that was part of "Toronto" even it wasn't part of Toronto. Where we draw lines and what we call things doesn't always reflect changing reality.

Anyway, it's perfectly fair to ask that if the TTC is to cross borders (or any other system) that there needs to be regional funding. I think that's fundamental. Of course, TTC used to receive substantial provincial subsidies but no one said, "If you're getting 50% of the money from the province, you need to run outside the municipal border!" But the whole dang region has outgrown the infrastructure and our thinking needs to catch up on many fronts. That's the larger issue.

Apologies if I sometimes get caught up in my own whimsical rhetoric

 

[salsa]

Sorry TJ.. but am I wrong to say that the TTC should serve Toronto?

Okay. Then how about we let the YRT buses turn back at Steeles, since Finch station is not in York Region. Maybe the Mississauga buses should do a U turn at the Etobicoke border, since Islington station is not in Mississauga. Because obviously travel patterns are dictated by an invisible line that is the municipal border.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

First of all, "Scarborough" appeared nowhere in my overly long text so I don't know what your point is. Second of all, you've got more straw men all over the place. Even if Scarborough is more dense than RH, so what? The subway only goes to the south end of RH and is mostly in Markham and Vaughan. And even then, are you actually suggesting that Scarborough is more dense, or more primed for density than Yonge Street? No chance.

It's good to know that all of the 905 is less dense than the city (I mean - even King City and Brampton and Niagara Falls are less dense than Toronto?!?! Cite your sources!) but you're really missing the entire point which is that development along Yonge is contiguous and there is no difference worth mentioning between Willowdale and Thornhill (which is more relevant than Richmond Hill, and certainly more relevant than Scarborough....)

Sheppard? Another straw man. We all know what wrong in planning and developing Sheppard. Sheppard isn't Yonge and a Yonge extension would have almost nothing in common with the new line built on Sheppard. If your crystal ball tells you RHC will be empty most of the day, that's good to know. So is Rosedale and I'm sure a lot of the stations on the BD - heck, Finch is pretty empty in the middle of the day so....I lost track - what was your point?

.

I clearly quoted Solid Snake, who has and was advocating for Sheppard east. The point is both are suburban extensions which are purely political and being done for votes. Any other reasons given are nothing more then window dressing.

 

[GenerationW]

I clearly quoted Solid Snake, who has and was advocating for Sheppard east. The point is both are suburban extensions which are purely political and being done for votes. Any other reasons given are nothing more then window dressing.

What votes? Sheppard and Yonge are, at best, minor issues municipally.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

what votes? Sheppard and yonge are, at best, minor issues municipally.

provincially!

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Okay. Then how about we let the YRT buses turn back at Steeles, since Finch station is not in York Region. Maybe the Mississauga buses should do a U turn at the Etobicoke border, since Islington station is not in Mississauga. Because obviously travel patterns are dictated by an invisible line that is the municipal border.

Not since the NYC example has someone lobbed me such a softball!
The system you described is regional buses being forced to drive to Toronto terminals.
Imagine 50 people standing at the corner of Yonge and Steeles, waiting to go to Toronto. A near-empty YRT bus crosses Steeles, en route to Finch. It is NOT ALLOWED to pick those people up. They have to wait for a TTC bus. And if the next TTC bus is filled to capacity, and then 3 more YRT buses come by, they'll keep waiting.

You know what that is? It's a non-seamless transit system dictated by an invisible line that is the municipal border. The fact that the bus is "allowed" to go to Finch utterly misses the larger picture of what is going on in the situation you so helpfully descbied.

 

[W. K. Lis]

That's how it already is... right? That's reality right now. 95-99% of TTC transit lines end within Toronto's borders. The only exceptions I can think of are the future Vaughan subway, the Eglinton bus goes into Mississauga for a bit, and the airport bus.

Just like Mississauga transit stays in Mississauga and York Region Transit mainly stays in York Region, and NYC's subway stays in NYC, it doesn't go into New Jersey (that's PATH's job).

The province pays 0% of the TTC's operating costs, but it does pay for a lot of capital costs for expansion projects, which is probably what you are referring to.

I'm pretty sure it's pretty normal for the state or province to fund a major cities' transit, like New York State funding NYC transit.

New York City also has other revenue outside of property taxes, including income tax and sales tax revenue. Work, play, or shop in New York City, one pays for New York's transit, even if only a small fraction. Better than Toronto's only revenue sources of property tax and the land transfer tax, and parking tickets & fees.