Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[nfitz]

Nfitz - yes, obviously (I suppose) I meant it makes no sense to NOT go north of Steeles and just stop it there.

I suspected, but I wasn't sure.

However, if that's your position (which I agree with BTW - it would be absurd to stop it at Steeles) I don't understand "-hardly saves any money once you've started digging". Once you've dug a km or two, there's little savings for just keeping digging. The cost is very directly proportional to distance. By stopping at Steeles, you'd have only 2 stations instead of 5. This saves a lot of money.

Also, they are planning three different segments of bored tunnel, with cut-and-cover in between (and to the north). The first drive is from north of the existing Finch station, through Cummer station, to just south of Steeles station. The TBMs would be pulled here, and a new launch site would be constructed north of Steeles station and the TBMs re-inserted (or different TBMs) would then drive north to near Centre Street, where they'd again pull the TBMs.

There's significant savings to stop at Steeles. In terms of construction cost/km, that section might be the cheapest, given the simplicity compare to what they have to deal with at the Don River.

However, I can't see that you'd stop it at Steeles. It should go to 7.

you know what I meant

I don't actually. You seem to be saying that adding public washrooms adds significantly to the construction cost. It doesn't. TTC avoids them because it adds significantly to the operations cost. The cost to build a public washroom into each station itself isn't that significant. In the end you've got just-as-big a hole. You've just built a few more walls, and a bit more plumbing (that's already there for the staff facilities). Maybe you need a larger diameter sewer. Not that costly compared to the entire station - it's a rounding error.

 

[salsa]

Every 15 minutes you get a fast train that gets you to Leslie Subway Station or straight to Union

Those are some great choices. I think I'll just take the Yonge line.

 

[Solid Snake]

I said it but I'll say it again: The development plans at the terminal station are explicitly contingent on the subway AND RER. That's the point. It's pretty black and white, really.

So "build it and they'll come"? Wow, where did I here that before I wonder?
That's poor planning at it's best. How about areas where the demand already exists?

There aren't enough rolley-eyes smileys for me here:

I know, we should have more!

-You're introducing an unnecessary transfer. So, if I live north of 7 now I have to take the subway to Steeles and then an LRT to 7 and then a BRT. This is entirely contrary (in several ways) to the goals of The Big Move and there is no proposal for an LRT.

Transfers never killed anybody. Scarborough had them for years and I didn't see you lose any sleep over it. Everyone transfers at some point. I take the streetcar every morning to Yonge street then I transfer to the subway to work at Sheppard-Yonge. Right, that's wrong...We should have a subway on St.clair to avoid transfers...

-The Sheppard and Oriole stations are not close enough to make that switch viable. So, now if I live north of 7 and I work at, say, yonge and Bloor, I can now either take your RER to Sheppard, walk a mile to the station, take it to Yonge (that's TWO transfers, not one) and then finally start heading south OR I can do the multiple transfers outlined above. Again, contrary to the Big Move, not in anyone's plans.

-Oh, but I see you want to MOVE Oriole. And how are you going to do that? Where are the cars going to park? Where's your new station, precisely?

Closing Oriole and opening a GO Station at Leslie is totally feasible and furthermore essential. I estimate your transfer time at around 5 minutes or less. Takes even less at Sheppard-Yonge to get to the Yonge line. less than a minute... I don't see the justification to spend billions to save you less than 10 minutes transfer time...
What would you do in NYC, Paris or London???

Why would you need to park at Leslie? Can't you park at RHC GO Station?
Ok...If you must park at Leslie...

-Obviously fewer stations are cheaper; duh. But then why even build to Steeles? Just build one at Cummer! Then an LRT can go from there to Steeles and a gondola up to 7 and then BRT. That would be even cheaper! Or scrap the Cummer-Steeles LRT and just do bike sharing, even cheaper! I mean, if we're throwing out the whole idea of a seamless, integrated regional transit system around which we aim to develop transit-oriented communities and all.

I can tell you hate the idea of not having a subway in the near future...What's wrong with taking the train to Union? Unless I'm mistaken, Bloor is not that far from Union by subway

I could go and on but you get the idea: makes no sense. Hopefully this won't go round and round again and hopefully they'll build something soon already.

Look...
I'll be reasonable...

Since the Province made it clear they had no money for it, if York Region taxpayers want to pay for their side of the extension with new taxes, I'm sure everyone will listen... Until then, I'm afraid that Vaughan Metropolitain Center "of the universe" is all York Region will be getting for a while

 

[Solid Snake]

Those are some great choices. I think I'll just take the Yonge line.

Pay for it and I'll agree with you

 

[BMO]

I don't actually. You seem to be saying that adding public washrooms adds significantly to the construction cost. It doesn't. TTC avoids them because it adds significantly to the operations cost. The cost to build a public washroom into each station itself isn't that significant. In the end you've got just-as-big a hole. You've just built a few more walls, and a bit more plumbing (that's already there for the staff facilities). Maybe you need a larger diameter sewer. Not that costly compared to the entire station - it's a rounding error.

I never once mentioned washrooms and cost, all I said was that I would like more washrooms so I don't poop myself when taking transit

 

[W. K. Lis]

Pay for it and I'll agree with you

With the province (and maybe the feds chipping in), we would all pay for the capital costs of the extension. The city of Toronto would only pay their portion of the capital costs of the extension up to Steeles Avenue only. North of Steeles, it would be York Region paying their portion of the capital costs.

 

[Solid Snake]

With the province (and maybe the feds chipping in), we would all pay for the capital costs of the extension. The city of Toronto would only pay their portion of the capital costs of the extension up to Steeles Avenue only. North of Steeles, it would be York Region paying their portion of the capital costs.

minus the operating cost that would fall on TTC and the City of Toronto's lapse...Besides, there won't be anything left for a decade after the upgrade to GO RER

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

SO if you're saying a completed EA, countless public consultations, the unanimous support of York Regional Council and the municipalities that comprise it and various vocal campaigns by YRT and the Region, as well as a planned prioritization of the project in the BIG Move aren't a clear message to the provincial government?

Maybe York Region should elect some crack addict to really get attention and change what we want every week...

Fair but the talk of Steeles is not from anyone here, it's from the Transit Investment Strategy Advisory Panel and the province. Me, I go back and forth on this.

I suspected, but I wasn't sure.

However, if that's your position (which I agree with BTW - it would be absurd to stop it at Steeles) I don't understand "-hardly saves any money once you've started digging". Once you've dug a km or two, there's little savings for just keeping digging. The cost is very directly proportional to distance. By stopping at Steeles, you'd have only 2 stations instead of 5. This saves a lot of money.

Also, they are planning three different segments of bored tunnel, with cut-and-cover in between (and to the north). The first drive is from north of the existing Finch station, through Cummer station, to just south of Steeles station. The TBMs would be pulled here, and a new launch site would be constructed north of Steeles station and the TBMs re-inserted (or different TBMs) would then drive north to near Centre Street, where they'd again pull the TBMs.

There's significant savings to stop at Steeles. In terms of construction cost/km, that section might be the cheapest, given the simplicity compare to what they have to deal with at the Don River.

However, I can't see that you'd stop it at Steeles. It should go to 7.

I don't actually. You seem to be saying that adding public washrooms adds significantly to the construction cost. It doesn't. TTC avoids them because it adds significantly to the operations cost. The cost to build a public washroom into each station itself isn't that significant. In the end you've got just-as-big a hole. You've just built a few more walls, and a bit more plumbing (that's already there for the staff facilities). Maybe you need a larger diameter sewer. Not that costly compared to the entire station - it's a rounding error.

nfitz, all he was saying is that he would like more washrooms.

 

[nfitz]

I never once mentioned washrooms and cost, all I said was that I would like more washrooms so I don't poop myself when taking transit

Then I clearly didn't know what you meant. We were discussing costs. I missed this morphing into other sh ... stuff.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Denton's right - here we go! I'll be succinct since this has all happened before and it will all happen again.
Nfitz - yes, obviously (I suppose) I meant it makes no sense to NOT go north of Steeles and just stop it there.

It's not "The Province of Ontario," that wants to stop it at Steeles; that was a recommendation by the Golden Panel and, FWIW, most of their other suggestions were ignored, at least when the Libs had a minority. The extension TO HIGHWAY 7 remains in the next wave of projects in The Big Move and is the only one of those projects with a complete EA.



I said it but I'll say it again: The development plans at the terminal station are explicitly contingent on the subway AND RER. That's the point. It's pretty black and white, really.



There aren't enough rolley-eyes smileys for me here:
-You're introducing an unnecessary transfer. So, if I live north of 7 now I have to take the subway to Steeles and then an LRT to 7 and then a BRT. This is entirely contrary (in several ways) to the goals of The Big Move and there is no proposal for an LRT.

-The Sheppard and Oriole stations are not close enough to make that switch viable. So, now if I live north of 7 and I work at, say, yonge and Bloor, I can now either take your RER to Sheppard, walk a mile to the station, take it to Yonge (that's TWO transfers, not one) and then finally start heading south OR I can do the multiple transfers outlined above. Again, contrary to the Big Move, not in anyone's plans.

-Oh, but I see you want to MOVE Oriole. And how are you going to do that? Where are the cars going to park? Where's your new station, precisely?

-Obviously fewer stations are cheaper; duh. But then why even build to Steeles? Just build one at Cummer! Then an LRT can go from there to Steeles and a gondola up to 7 and then BRT. That would be even cheaper! Or scrap the Cummer-Steeles LRT and just do bike sharing, even cheaper! I mean, if we're throwing out the whole idea of a seamless, integrated regional transit system around which we aim to develop transit-oriented communities and all.

I could go and on but you get the idea: makes no sense. Hopefully this won't go round and round again and hopefully they'll build something soon already.

So "build it and they'll come"? Wow, where did I here that before I wonder?
That's poor planning at it's best. How about areas where the demand already exists?



I know, we should have more!



Transfers never killed anybody. Scarborough had them for years and I didn't see you lose any sleep over it. Everyone transfers at some point. I take the streetcar every morning to Yonge street then I transfer to the subway to work at Sheppard-Yonge. Right, that's wrong...We should have a subway on St.clair to avoid transfers...




Closing Oriole and opening a GO Station at Leslie is totally feasible and furthermore essential. I estimate your transfer time at around 5 minutes or less. Takes even less at Sheppard-Yonge to get to the Yonge line. less than a minute... I don't see the justification to spend billions to save you less than 10 minutes transfer time...
What would you do in NYC, Paris or London???

Why would you need to park at Leslie? Can't you park at RHC GO Station?
Ok...If you must park at Leslie...

I can tell you hate the idea of not having a subway in the near future...What's wrong with taking the train to Union? Unless I'm mistaken, Bloor is not that far from Union by subway


Look...
I'll be reasonable...

Since the Province made it clear they had no money for it, if York Region taxpayers want to pay for their side of the extension with new taxes, I'm sure everyone will listen... Until then, I'm afraid that Vaughan Metropolitain Center "of the universe" is all York Region will be getting for a while

And at the very end of the day, you are arguing both for suburban extensions, of which both project have and don't have their merits. This is the problem with subway expansion: it's a political football. GO does more for less, which is why the province is looking at electrification.

That being said, if RHC must be built, then built it. Same with Sheppard east.

 

[nfitz]

-The Sheppard and Oriole stations are not close enough to make that switch viable. So, now if I live north of 7 and I work at, say, yonge and Bloor, I can now either take your RER to Sheppard, walk a mile to the station, take it to Yonge (that's TWO transfers, not one) and then finally start heading south OR I can do the multiple transfers outlined above. Again, contrary to the Big Move, not in anyone's plans.

-Oh, but I see you want to MOVE Oriole. And how are you going to do that? Where are the cars going to park? Where's your new station, precisely?

They park the same place they do now. Take a look at Google Maps. If you just slid the entire platform north 300 metres, the north end would be at the back door of Leslie Station. A GO Platform needs to be over 300 metres long (the current one looks to be 400 metres long ... which does seem excessive).

It's only about 450 metres form the edge of the 401 to the subway. If you put a 75 metre walkway at each end of the platform, then those who park, have a very short walk to parking from the south end of the train, and those that use the subway have a very short walk on the north end of the train.

The key would be extending the platform over Esther Shiner. But this is still a pittance to what is currently being spend on building new GO stations like Downsview Park, Caledonia, and Mount Dennis.

 

[W. K. Lis]

minus the operating cost that would fall on TTC and the City of Toronto's lapse...Besides, there won't be anything left for a decade after the upgrade to GO RER

The operating cost or subsidy will be the same as the Spadina extension north of Steeles. York Region will be paying the operatin subsidy, just as they and the other 905ers pay for the TTC buses that cross the wild frontier into vast wilderness known as the 905.

 

[nfitz]

The operating cost or subsidy will be the same as the Spadina extension north of Steeles. York Region will be paying the subsidy, just as they and the other 905ers pay for the TTC buses that cross the wild frontier into vast wilderness known as the 905.

No. TTC agreed to assuming the entire operating cost of the Spadina line north of Steeles. There is no subsidy from York to TTC to operate the subway. The only concession TTC got was they get the full fare, and no free transfers from YRT buses to the subway, even for travel entirely within York Region.

As virtually all the Spadina travellers are presumably heading into Toronto this perhaps shouldn't be the same deal as for Yonge, where it's easy to imagine that people will board the subway at Richmond Hill, with a destination north of Steeles.

Presumably if fare integration proceeds, there would have to be some YRT subdsidy to TTC to operate the Spadina subway. But there's no sign of integration anytime soon.

 

[GenerationW]

It's not whether it should or not, but the fact remains that the extension only has a positive cost benefit ratio for the Steeles extension. Then there is also the fact that we only have $15 billion to work with, once you the DRL and Yonge extension In you have eaten up half of that money, leaving little for other projects. I the context of that money I suspect they will build it to Steeles as they can probably do that without the DRL once you factor in RER. If you include the whole thing, you require the DRL, which means that the cost goes from $1 billion to $7 billion..

I don't see how they can extend Yonge only to Steeles without a massive caucus fight from York Region MPPs. But it will all come down to how the province decides to spend that $15 billion of GTA transit money. I expect we'll end up with a worst-case scenario for Toronto -- a full Yonge extension and no DRL (barring any federal money).

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

They park the same place they do now. Take a look at Google Maps. If you just slid the entire platform north 300 metres, the north end would be at the back door of Leslie Station. A GO Platform needs to be over 300 metres long (the current one looks to be 400 metres long ... which does seem excessive).

It's only about 450 metres form the edge of the 401 to the subway. If you put a 75 metre walkway at each end of the platform, then those who park, have a very short walk to parking from the south end of the train, and those that use the subway have a very short walk on the north end of the train.

If it's so easy, I guess my question is why no one made any effort to do so when the station was designed. But, really, despite the protests above, it remains non-sensical. You're still asking people to start at Yonge, take a train over to Leslie/Sheppard and then take two transfers to get back to Yonge. And that's assuming there is no fare premium, even after integration, for using two systems. Why on earth would any one of the 7 billion human beings on this planet ever do such a thing? You know what they'll do? They'll drive to Finch, same as ever, and you'll have accomplished nothing.

I guess I'd like to see the Sheppard line properly integrated there but the idea that it in anyway is a replacement for a Yonge extension - we're talking about THREE KM here - is a bridge too far.

All this fuss over 3 km. People are actually arguing this scenario and that scenario, willing to tear up Yonge for years and get tunnel boring machines and all that, but only go to from Finch to Steeles? Boggles the mind, really.

No. TTC agreed to assuming the entire operating cost of the Spadina line north of Steeles. There is no subsidy from York to TTC to operate the subway. The only concession TTC got was they get the full fare, and no free transfers from YRT buses to the subway, even for travel entirely within York Region.

...
Presumably if fare integration proceeds, there would have to be some YRT subdsidy to TTC to operate the Spadina subway. But there's no sign of integration anytime soon.

-I think fare integration/reconfiguration is inevitable. Metrolinx, the Golden Panel, everyone's made it clear it's a priority and cross-border projects will force their hand.

-TTC gets the full fare AND full parking revenue from the Spadina extension.

So "build it and they'll come"? Wow, where did I here that before I wonder?
That's poor planning at it's best. How about areas where the demand already exists?

If you think there's no demand along Yonge Street, north of Finch Avenue, I'd like to congratulate you on your savvy real estate knowledge and ask if you'd perhaps be interested in a bridge I have in New York. I'll give you a great deal.

Yeah, if you don't think developing a contiguous rapid transit corridor on Yonge Street is "good planning," -- when the municipality has put in huge density targets and major developers are ready to start selling the day the subway is announced - I'm curious what fits your definition. Anticipating density at Yonge/7 is "poor planning at its best"? For real?

Transfers never killed anybody. Scarborough had them for years and I didn't see you lose any sleep over it. Everyone transfers at some point. I take the streetcar every morning to Yonge street then I transfer to the subway to work at Sheppard-Yonge. Right, that's wrong...We should have a subway on St.clair to avoid transfers...

Make the argument all you want. Metroilnx's purported goal is to reduce transfers where possible and the idea of chopping up the Yonge corridor to add more is antithetical.

Closing Oriole and opening a GO Station at Leslie is totally feasible and furthermore essential. I estimate your transfer time at around 5 minutes or less. Takes even less at Sheppard-Yonge to get to the Yonge line. less than a minute... I don't see the justification to spend billions to save you less than 10 minutes transfer time...
What would you do in NYC, Paris or London???

So, in your New York people from the Bronx take commuter rail over to Queens to get on a subway to go to Manhattan instead of going straight south? In your Paris, major E/W transit nodes are built 2/3KM away from major N/S terminals?

I can tell you hate the idea of not having a subway in the near future...What's wrong with taking the train to Union? Unless I'm mistaken, Bloor is not that far from Union by subway

I think we're being a bit ironic at this point but if you don't think eliminating transfers where possible, giving riders more route options and eliminating unnecessary backtracking should be a prime consideration when planning new transit lines....well, no offence, I'll just hope you're not working for Metrolinx.


Let's be really honest here - can any one of the people on this board who support stopping the subway at Steeles admit that if the municipal border were at Highway 7 instead of Steeles, that we would not be discussing this at all? I'm going to put on the table that I 100% believe that, whether it's conscious or not, the ONLY argument anyone posits about stopping at Steeles boils down to "that's where Toronto ends." Maybe I'm setting up a straw man - because I think the border is utterly obsolete and has been for some time - but that's what I see, over and over again. Might as well leave it at Finch in that case, I say.