Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[TheTigerMaster]

I can't begin to imagine how the Transit City bus and LRT plan would have transformed this city. The inner suburbs would have been so much better connected.

It's too bad that TC wasn't proposed earlier on in Miller's two terms in office. If it had been he may have been able to pass a transit tax that would go towards building the whole TC plan. We could have ended up with TC + The Big Move.

 

[innsertnamehere]

If miller had started in in 2004 instead of 2007 or 2008 or whenever it was it probably would have happened as planned, or at least the half funded version we were originally going to get. I like the changes that have been made since, but still wish the bus plan was implemented. Miller spent the first few years as mayor trying to get spadina built, and when that finally came in 2006 he switched focus to transit city.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Millers biggest mistake was not running for a third term.

 

[BMO]

I can't begin to imagine how the Transit City bus and LRT plan would have transformed this city. The inner suburbs would have been so much better connected.

It's too bad that TC wasn't proposed earlier on in Miller's two terms in office. If it had been he may have been able to pass a transit tax that would go towards building the whole TC plan. We could have ended up with TC + The Big Move.

The issue I have with TC is that it addressed local transit. But most people who take the bus for local transit needs in the suburbs can attest that the buses work quite well and the benefits of LRT over a bus is greatly diminished by the length of the trip. The issue is, and always has been, providing faster transit to the core for the longer trips. TC was not going to provide the substantial increases in travel times from the suburbs IMO. I know I would rather have fewer LRT lines in exchanged for a few more subway nodes that were spread around so that my bus trip to the subway system is shorter. As it stands, the TC plan was a plan to improve the efficiency and capacity of the busiest bus routes, but it did not improve the biggest factor that matters to myself and a lot of other suburban residents, which is substantial time savings.

This isn't to say one point of view is dumb and another is better, but in my experience, it's not so much the level of service that the buses provide that is the issue, it's the distance to the nearest subway stop. I have my doubts that the majority of the TC LRT lines wouldn't just become more expensive lines who's passengers are really still trying to get to the Subway system. I'm skeptical that TC would have really created viable alternatives for these long distance trips, which is where I think there's a disconnect between some people.

It's not a matter of wanting "subways, subways, subways". In my opinion, and I'm sure there are others who share the same, TC was a plan that gave money to everyone but didn't really improve the key trips that people wanted improved. Especially from a suburban mindset, if I live in North York or Scarborough, I can just drive around to most places I want to go to within my suburbs, or take a bus which isn't that bad. But it's the long distance trips to the core where a lot of people need better travel times because there really aren't faster alternatives than the subway, and even with the LRTs people would still be getting on the subway. If you give them a real alternative you'd see how quickly things would change. I would personally rather see LRT money in the suburbs go towards better GO station integration, better GO frequencies so that one could take a bus to their nearest GO station for a quick trip downtown or midtown.

TC was a political plan that didn't actually look at the travel patterns in the city, but rather, simply provided "improved transit" to everyone in the city. There's no doubt that it would have been good for the city, but I would be very skeptical to believe that it would have relieved any of the current pain points and issues the transit system faces.

 

[sixrings]

It's not a matter of wanting "subways, subways, subways". In my opinion, and I'm sure there are others who share the same, TC was a plan that gave money to everyone but didn't really improve the key trips that people wanted improved. Especially from a suburban mindset, if I live in North York or Scarborough, I can just drive around to most places I want to go to within my suburbs, or take a bus which isn't that bad. But it's the long distance trips to the core where a lot of people need better travel times because there really aren't faster alternatives than the subway, and even with the LRTs people would still be getting on the subway. If you give them a real alternative you'd see how quickly things would change. I would personally rather see LRT money in the suburbs go towards better GO station integration, better GO frequencies so that one could take a bus to their nearest GO station for a quick trip downtown or midtown.

TC was a political plan that didn't actually look at the travel patterns in the city, but rather, simply provided "improved transit" to everyone in the city. There's no doubt that it would have been good for the city, but I would be very skeptical to believe that it would have relieved any of the current pain points and issues the transit system faces.

ONE I am not going to agree that it was a political plan. Finch needs something. The LRT isnt just some way to magically fix Jane and Finch social needs. No one believes that.

TWO What a lot of "Subway Subway Subway" only people dont recognize is that a lot of us TC fanatics are actually PRO SUBWAY. Its just that we are PRO SUBWAY mostly only on the DRL. For me (and I live in the western area so this wont benefit me at all) Id like to see a DRL from SHeppard down don mills through king to Dundas West. THATS ONE HUGEEEEE SUBWAY. So dont assume that LRT and TC supporters are ANTI Subway 110% of the time but for the love of God a subway doesnt make sense on Sheppard or on Finch as much as the crack smoking drunken stoper mayor or your own opinon tells you so.

THREE The recent meeting with Jennifer Keesmaat and Jarrett Walker showed what alot of Toronto actual transit users already knew. Toronto roads are built on a grid. So essentially you should be able to take any part of the map and map out point A and Point B and should be able to get there through only one transfer. A L shape transfer is what he referred to it as. I wish I could articulate it better but it sure makes sense to me. Theres a video online which you should go watch if you cant get what I am saying. Essentially we need as many full lines as possible on the map going in a straight direction, whether it be BUS lines LRT lines or in the Right places SUBWAY lines.

FOUR All this Subway Subway Subway crap is beginning to make me RAGE. I want a FN subway too. Just that its a DRL. BTW I live on Eglinton and am happy with my LRT.

 

[smallspy]

The TTC ordered the articulated buses for its "Transit City" bus plan. At least they are being used.

The Transit City Bus Plan was never funded, and thus it doesn't exist as a programme.

The TTC has been trying to buy articulated buses since 2001, and all of the orders since that time indicate that. What has changed between then and now is that Nova Bus has a vehicle that is (mostly) compliant with the TTC's specifications and that is willing to work with the TTC - the only option until a couple of years ago was New Flyer, and their vehicles weren't compliant and they weren't willing to deal.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[BMO]

ONE I am not going to agree that it was a political plan. Finch needs something. The LRT isnt just some way to magically fix Jane and Finch social needs. No one believes that.

TWO What a lot of "Subway Subway Subway" only people dont recognize is that a lot of us TC fanatics are actually PRO SUBWAY. Its just that we are PRO SUBWAY mostly only on the DRL. For me (and I live in the western area so this wont benefit me at all) Id like to see a DRL from SHeppard down don mills through king to Dundas West. THATS ONE HUGEEEEE SUBWAY. So dont assume that LRT and TC supporters are ANTI Subway 110% of the time but for the love of God a subway doesnt make sense on Sheppard or on Finch as much as the crack smoking drunken stoper mayor or your own opinon tells you so.

THREE The recent meeting with Jennifer Keesmaat and Jarrett Walker showed what alot of Toronto actual transit users already knew. Toronto roads are built on a grid. So essentially you should be able to take any part of the map and map out point A and Point B and should be able to get there through only one transfer. A L shape transfer is what he referred to it as. I wish I could articulate it better but it sure makes sense to me. Theres a video online which you should go watch if you cant get what I am saying. Essentially we need as many full lines as possible on the map going in a straight direction, whether it be BUS lines LRT lines or in the Right places SUBWAY lines.

FOUR All this Subway Subway Subway crap is beginning to make me RAGE. I want a FN subway too. Just that its a DRL. BTW I live on Eglinton and am happy with my LRT.

I was at the Jeremy Walker talk, and I thought it was an interesting talk. I've articulated my disagreement with a few of his points in the other thread talking about it. He criticized Toronto's system for having shorter routes and made no mention of using local transit to funnel people onto a larger system. It's a difference of opinion, but I am of the belief that, given our density and urban form, it makes more sense to build more nodes with short local routes to funnel people to those nodes of high capacity transit systems. He also compared the city to LA which has fundamental differences in urban forms. You can't simple have one giant bus route effectively serve a high density node followed by an extremely low density neighborhood for 80% of the route, yet plan the route's frequency jsut for the 3 or 4 stops that actually get riders, if you want to make the line viable in a fiscal sense. You'd either have to short turn buses to accommodate the high influx of riders at the densest portions and then take a loss on those buses for the other 80% of the route. I am of the view that you can pinpoint high capacity routes to certain nodes where cost effective low-density travel tools like bus routes or even BRT/LRT can be used to connect to the higher capacity nodes. Just like how it makes no sense to build a subway where there is no density, it makes no sense to build a bus route or LRT that extends the entire city when in reality it's just picking up and dropping off passengers within 20% of the route. If you can extend some rapid transit routes or implement a larger number of rapid transit nodes you can create a system that works efficiently and faster than an L-transfer. I find it ironic how he complained about transportation planners putting huge penalties on transfers yet he poo poos the idea of *gasp transferring more than once.

For the record, the density along Bloor doesn't support the subway, it's the bus connections from the north and other low-density areas that provide the ridership to support it.

 

[rbt]

I hated Miller because I thought he caved to the garbage unions right when we had them in order to win the pan am games.

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about the Union contracts Ford has negotiated so far? Most people seem fairly happy with them.

 

[sixrings]

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about the Union contracts Ford has negotiated so far? Most people seem fairly happy with them.

Its a little different. Unions had less power during a recession.

The big problem with the Garbage Union strike is that the Unions were on strike for so long there were many people thinking that they were going to crumble. I could afford to go on strike for a month, maybe two, maximum three before we would be in trouble with the banks for our mortgage and my wife makes good money. Most of the Union would have been in a similar situation where they were forced to have to make a deal because their own finances wouldnt hold up. Instead we had to clean up the city before the Pan Am games officials came so we made a deal. Screwed. My second frustration with the whole thing was how chaotic it was to have to drop off garbage. The residents were ready to do it but it took forever at the dumping stations. That should have been fixed too.

As much as I was frustrated with Miller and the Garbage strike fiasco I think I was in agreement with his tear down of the expressway and Transit city enough that I would have revoted for him. Anyways what did voting for Ford do anyways (I DID NOT VOTE FOR FORD), strike a deal with Police with no fuss and tried and failed to stop transit city and tried and assumed failed to keep the expressway up.

Memo to FORD who wants respect for tax payers. Subways cost more then LRTS. The expressway costs more up then down. And the TTC and Police Unions are the two unions holding the city hostage.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

We're getting a bit off-topic....

 

[BMO]

We're getting a bit off-topic....

this...

 

[kEiThZ]

The issue I have with TC is that it addressed local transit. But most people who take the bus for local transit needs in the suburbs can attest that the buses work quite well and the benefits of LRT over a bus is greatly diminished by the length of the trip. The issue is, and always has been, providing faster transit to the core for the longer trips. TC was not going to provide the substantial increases in travel times from the suburbs IMO. I know I would rather have fewer LRT lines in exchanged for a few more subway nodes that were spread around so that my bus trip to the subway system is shorter. As it stands, the TC plan was a plan to improve the efficiency and capacity of the busiest bus routes, but it did not improve the biggest factor that matters to myself and a lot of other suburban residents, which is substantial time savings.

This isn't to say one point of view is dumb and another is better, but in my experience, it's not so much the level of service that the buses provide that is the issue, it's the distance to the nearest subway stop. I have my doubts that the majority of the TC LRT lines wouldn't just become more expensive lines who's passengers are really still trying to get to the Subway system. I'm skeptical that TC would have really created viable alternatives for these long distance trips, which is where I think there's a disconnect between some people.

It's not a matter of wanting "subways, subways, subways". In my opinion, and I'm sure there are others who share the same, TC was a plan that gave money to everyone but didn't really improve the key trips that people wanted improved. Especially from a suburban mindset, if I live in North York or Scarborough, I can just drive around to most places I want to go to within my suburbs, or take a bus which isn't that bad. But it's the long distance trips to the core where a lot of people need better travel times because there really aren't faster alternatives than the subway, and even with the LRTs people would still be getting on the subway. If you give them a real alternative you'd see how quickly things would change. I would personally rather see LRT money in the suburbs go towards better GO station integration, better GO frequencies so that one could take a bus to their nearest GO station for a quick trip downtown or midtown.

TC was a political plan that didn't actually look at the travel patterns in the city, but rather, simply provided "improved transit" to everyone in the city. There's no doubt that it would have been good for the city, but I would be very skeptical to believe that it would have relieved any of the current pain points and issues the transit system faces.

I reposted your entire post. Because it is spot on how I feel. To me the LRTs are simply a slightly faster bus. It doesn't do much to save on travel times. And a part of those savings will go towards a longer walk to the stop for many riders. I actually think that's the other shoe that's yet to drop on many riders. I've had quite a few family and friends express surprise when I tell them the stops are going to be twice as far apart on the LRT lines.

To me the issue is the priority of the riders. Most 416 suburban residents don't want a solution that improves bus times for local travel. They care about the trip that impacts them the most every single day: their commutes (often at peak). Instead of addressing those concerns, we went off and built a plan to turn busy bus routes into LRT lines. Sure, that'll save some operational funds. But it hasn't really done much at the end of the day to address the concerns of a majority of residents to begin with: their peak commutes.

That said, I do agree that there's a place for LRT in this city. I even support converting Sheppard. But I can't agree that LRT is a one-size fits all...for example as an SRT replacement where they are now suggesting that they'll have to run twice as much service from Kennedy to McCowan because demand is only slightly below subway levels on that portion of the line.

As for Yonge North? No brainer to me. I hate these fights over jurisdiction and whether they should expand to Richmond Hill. The riders are already there. Build the damn line.

 

[kEiThZ]

FOUR All this Subway Subway Subway crap is beginning to make me RAGE. I want a FN subway too. Just that its a DRL. BTW I live on Eglinton and am happy with my LRT.

In my opinion, I don't thinnk public opinion is so clear-cut. And Ford is really good at polarizing it. If BD reaches STC, I actually do think that it'll take the wind out of demands for Sheppard subway. And it'll be virtually a guarantee if the BD reaches Sheppard. You might even get people saying how stupid the transfer is at Don Mills (the way they talk about Kennedy today) and get demands to convert the Sheppard subway to LRT!

 

[WislaHD]

Their commutes will improve immensely with the building of SELRT and FWLRT. These take buses off of busy routes and replaces them with a much more comfortable and quicker LRT. The buses that get taken off of Sheppard East, Finch West and Eglinton can be re-purposed to increasing frequency and reliability of other feeder bus routes to Finch/Sheppard.

It's a win-win.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I reposted your entire post. Because it is spot on how I feel. To me the LRTs are simply a slightly faster bus.

I can't agree with this. The great thing about the 510 Spadina is not just because it's a "slightly faster bus". It's also because of the reliability of it. I know I can walk to a stop at any time and have a streetcar no more than 3 or 4 minutes away. I also can expect consistent travel times because the streetcar is fully protected from traffic. In fact the travel experience of the 510 has been so good that when I'm heading downtown I'll often opt to take the 510 over the YUS. These are things that I could never imagine myself saying about a bus.