Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I don't fundamentally disagree with your points but..

Other regions do not have to care about Toronto. However, if York Region wants a subway extension that is not technically possible without adding capacity within Toronto, then it is in York's own interests to push for DRL in Toronto.

Well, I think they DO have to care about Toronto because (QED) their ability to build their part of a real, regional network is contingent on what the biggest system in the GTA does and doesn't do. I don't think York is against the DRL but they do want to do their line first.

The Scarborough subway will have less impact on the Yonge's capacity than the Yonge extension will.

Obviously. But it won't have NO impact. It also has far less development potential which (ironically) is precisely why it's not going to overwhelm the system the way Yonge would. If you looked at a regional map, without borders, the need for the Yonge line would be obvious. I'm not dismissing the DRL, merely pointing out how Toronto's inaction on it is throwing off what others can do.

The risk with this approach is that Yonge North might get funded and its construction starts, while the DRL funding falters and gets pushed into a remote future.
If both projects are funded in a package, then, indeed, there is no harm of Yonge North actually opening 2 or 3 years earlier than DRL, due to the longer EA and design time needed for DRL.

Yes. In my hypothetical scenario, I'd agree the two should be announced together, with the understanding Yonge is going first. I don't think it's dangerous to do the extension first but it would be dangerous if the DRL isn't a future reality. Again, there's something amusing about the notion that if Yonge wasn't proposed first, the DRL would probably still be sitting on a shelf. It's interesting to see how it moved from the Metrolinx 25-year plan, to the 15-year plan, to the Golden Panel wanting it built before one of the projects outlined in the initial Move2020 plan. That's the thanks York Region gets

They should get moving sooner rather than later either way. If they can't even start Yonge for another 5-6 years, well, you can kiss a lot of planned intensification in well-meaning places like Markham goodbye. I sympathize with the genuine constraints Toronto has had but their inability to execute even their own transit plans in the past few years is causing damage beyond the 416 borders.

And...

This us vs. them thing needs to stop. We're trying to build a regional transit network. We don't do that by screwing over other parts of the region because one part may deserve a "reward".

I can't even tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me. I totally agree on us vs. them but (as I just said) Toronto is holding the regional network hostage, even if unintentionally. York Region doesn't "deserve" a subway as a "reward" the same way Scarborough did. They need it to fulfill the intensification plan the province has devised. If you think we shouldn't "reward" Markham for trying to build TOD (as opposed to Scarborough simply bitching that they should have subways because downtown does) you're missing the entire point of Places to Grow and the Big Move. You can't ask them to do better, restrict greenfield development etc. and then not provide the infrastructure.

No one is trying to "screw over" Toronto or anyone else but clearly we are at a point where local and regional needs are bumping up against one another. Everyone's going to have to work together better than they have been if we're building a regional network and, more to the point, more sustainable development in the suburbs. If they don't enact revenue tools soon, this will all be besides the point anyway and none of this will get built.

 

[TOareaFan]

Golden panel is exactly that, a panel making recommendations. While the Liberals have been a bit vague on their final plans, they are probably still formulating them. They won't be the Panels recommendations exactly and they won't be Metrolinx's recommendations exactly either. We will see what they are going to go with in a few months once they present the budget.

I guess they could just strike yet another panel? As for the bolded part you are probably right....but they are comfortable saying in a Thornhill byelection that they have a transit plan for Thornhill?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

No one is trying to "screw over" Toronto or anyone else but clearly we are at a point where local and regional needs are bumping up against one another. Everyone's going to have to work together better than they have been if we're building a regional network and, more to the point, more sustainable development in the suburbs.

Is this not what we've been doing? Right now the timeline in place will give York Region "their" subway once the rest of the network is ready to accommodate it. This is the logical thing to do. I don't know what more York Region could reasonably want from the City of Toronto.

 

[BMO]

Love how if you look back to the beginning of this thread a few years ago everyone was saying why would we build a subway to nowhere? and now everybody is freaking out about this "nowhere" overcrowding the subway...

The Yonge subway will not overcrowd the existing subway much more than what is already there. The fact of the matter is that the Yonge subway is already overcrowded and so people are taking advantage of York Region's initiative for the Yonge subway and coming up with excuses to fund their own pet projects like the DRL. Even provincial ridership estimations don't project the Yonge extension to add substantially to the overcrowding. People that will use the extension are ALREADY using the Yonge subway. The only difference is that People in North York and Thornhill will no longer have to clog up roads driving to Finch Station to park and ride, or spend longer than they have to on crowded buses north of Finch.

This entire DRL debate is all political wrangling to get the Province to fund it as an ultimatum to an extension that York Region NEEDS to achieve their Places to Grow goals and Regional Transportation Plan goals. Toronto needs to come up with a plan and stick to it. The DRL needs to happen but it should be pursued in it's own right, with the proper backing and planning that we've seen go into the Yonge Extension (spearheaded by the Region BTW). We need to see Toronto actively push it and hold PICs. I think we're starting to see a bit of that, but it's really back of mind when it should be front of mind (like how the Yonge extension is in York Region).

I suggest some people try taking any bus from Finch station around Peak-hour and see what kind of hell it is to board a bus. If you think being stuck on a subway downtown is bad you have no idea how much worse being stuck on a bus with dirty windows (can't see anything), broken heating and jerk stopping is...I often witness people having to wait for two or three buses to pass before getting on one (remember frequencies are much longer than subway) leading to waiting an extra 20-30 minutes often. I've rarely had to wait for more than 2 or 3 subways to pass before getting on. To top this off, there are so many buses on Yonge going north from Finch the dedicated commuters lanes for buses are often useless because so many buses are picking up and dropping people off, so in effect you have buses taking up the two right lanes all the way to Steeles. This is all because the subway unnecessarily ends short of where it should end.

Honestly I dread taking the bus from Finch every day.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Is this not what we've been doing? Right now the timeline in place will give York Region "their" subway once the rest of the network is ready to accommodate it. This is the logical thing to do. I don't know what more York Region could reasonably want from the City of Toronto.

It is indeed a reasonable desire.
But it assumes that Toronto is capable of holding up its end. The last few years, it hasn't been.

The Scarborough decision(s) a) wasted time b) are arguably adding at least some more capacity to Yonge c) took money that could have gone to the DRL.
Ford has made it clear that if he's re-elected, revisiting Sheppard and Finch (and, yes, DRL) are his priorities. Yonge isn't even on his radar, which is remarkable given that it's a suburban subway and much closer to reality than the others he so loves.

He's also still opposed to new taxes etc. to pay for all this. If that agenda continues, I guess my answer to your point is that York Region could reasonably want the City of Toronto to get its act together so the whole region isn't dragged into an economic black hole by its mismanagement. Luckily (?) we live in a country where cities are almost powerless to do anything so there is effectively zero chance of York Region somehow just building the subway (or even an LRT, for that matter) on its own. Really, this mess is a perfect metaphor for all the transit problems that have gone on here over the past generation.

(And BMO posted while I was typing and I'd say I agree with about every single word. I do love going back in the threads to see the fight between Team This Is A Subway To Nowhere and Team This Will Destroy And Overhwhelm Us [as well as Team Both Things Are True!]. The province is forcing suburbs to intensify and they need transit to do it. Toronto has done a poor job holding up its end of the network and now that is having regional implications, to sum up. The implications are very wide ranging.)

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The Scarborough decision(s) a) wasted time b) are arguably adding at least some more capacity to Yonge c) taking money that could have gone to the DRL.

What money? I haven't seen any money taken from the RL

 

[innsertnamehere]

I guess they could just strike yet another panel? As for the bolded part you are probably right....but they are comfortable saying in a Thornhill byelection that they have a transit plan for Thornhill?

well apparently they want to keep this in the plans, which really isn't surprising, As soon as I saw the Golden panel recommend cutting some projects short I knew it wouldn't fly politically. The liberals took on huge heat a few years ago when they dropped the AD2W plans to Milton, it would be that time 10 if they started chopping up key projects such as the hamilton LRT and the Yonge extension.

 

[innsertnamehere]

What money? I haven't seen any money taken from the RL

correct, there is no money from the RL, and you can never realistically expect the money from the RL to come from the city, the project is simply way too large and expensive for the city to finance single handily. What the money (or at least the federal money) did come from however is a general infrastructure fund, but even then that could have been considered strategic given that if the transit taxes pass the city will be getting huge amounts of new money every year for general capital projects, likely in the hundreds of millions a year.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

What money? I haven't seen any money taken from the RL

I'm not referring to you specifically but there are many who have zero understanding of where the federal contribution is coming from. It's $600M that was coming to the city anyway, through an infrastructure fund. Under "normal" circumstances, the city would have talked about how to spend that money and if they had an actual process about the infra projects they need, the DRL would have been high on that list (though, obviously it's not sufficient to have funded its entirety, any more than it is for Scarborough).

Instead, the city spent the whole wad one project without any consideration of its relative priority and, of course, Ford and Harper spun if it as if it was new money. It wasn't, and now it's gone. The city (at least under Ford, to date) has made it clear that they are unwilling to put up new money for TTC projects on an ongoing basis. The feds have cashed out and that now means the entire regional program hinges on Toronto getting its back scratched first, from that provincial pool.

That's my point about how Scarborough undermined the city's ability to properly plan its infrastructure/transit (and, by corollary) why other GTA goverments (or even me!) have the right to call them on it.

 

[innsertnamehere]

there is a very low likelyhood that the money would have gone to the DRL. Much more likely it would have gone to fixing up public housing, repairing the gardiner, etc. general capital money.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm not referring to you specifically but there are many who have zero understanding of where the federal contribution is coming from. It's $600M that was coming to the city anyway, through an infrastructure fund. Under "normal" circumstances, the city would have talked about how to spend that money and if they had an actual process about the infra projects they need, the DRL would have been high on that list (though, obviously it's not sufficient to have funded its entirety, any more than it is for Scarborough).

The Province has committed $7.4 Billion to build the whole RL. There's nothing for the city to discuss regarding RL funding. The thing is funded already (assuming budget is passed).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

there is a very low likelyhood that the money would have gone to the DRL. Much more likely it would have gone to fixing up public housing, repairing the gardiner, etc. general capital money.

It would have been incredibly stupid for Toronto to commit that $600 Million to the RL when the thing is funded already. Better to use that towards other transit projects in areas of the city that need it.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

there is a very low likelyhood that the money would have gone to the DRL. Much more likely it would have gone to fixing up public housing, repairing the gardiner, etc. general capital money.

a) This is speculation
b) It's missing my point

My point is that the city did not wait for the money and then talk about whether to spend it on public housing or the Gardiner. Ford wanted his subway to grab it and so it did and was spun as if it was something other than what it was. Byford tried to walk a fine line but even he acknowledged that, all things being equal, the RL was a higher transit priority.

They took the money and spent it on a pet project; they wasted it. I'm not inferring it was actually going to the DRL but that it was used to undermine the city's own infrastructure priorities. Even if you prefer subway to the LRT, I can't imagine anyone on these boards is actually approving, in any way, of the process through which that line was approved. Therefore, I don't see how you cannot understand the degree to which that process exemplified and amplified everything wrong with the city's transit planning (of which the budgeting is one part).

Indeed, you're right in that Toronto is so far behind in its DRL planning that of course it wasn't going to go there, but that's also the point. So now we have the only federal money the city had coming to it out the window. We have a reluctance, if not antipathy, towards the city chipping in anything itself. And we have a provincial process that's taking its time and, we hope, could start bearing fruit in the spring. And Toronto, who just spent 4 years thumbing their nose at Metrolinx and the province, will then be first in line.

Again, I'm not saying the DRL isn't a top priority or that there was explicit money for it wasted but that the city's messed-up process is having a larger effect on the regional transit plan and, even bigger, the growth plan. No subway for Markham, no intensification, more sprawl, more gridlock, even with the DRL. We need to be moving forward on more than one front here and taking the reins away from people who selfishly subvert the process....that's my point

 

[salsa]

We should be rewarding suburbs that are trying to intensify, not punishing them because Toronto spends 4 years reversing itself on approved transit decisions, including prioritizing Scarborough (and now the mayor is going on still about Finch and Sheppard. It's interesting to note that, for all his love of suburban subways, the Yonge plan isn't even on his radar. I guess it's not enough in his suburb?)

Toronto Transit planning 101:
1. North York already has 3 subway lines
2. Scarborough only gets 3 stations
3. Therefore we must build the Scarborough subway first,
4. then extend the Sheppard line.
5. All other LRTs must be replaced by subways, because subways
6. Build it and the money will come

What money? I haven't seen any money taken from the RL

Harper: "we already gave you money for Scarborough, we are not giving you anything more".
Toronto: "our finances are tapped out because of Scarborough, we can't afford to contribute a single penny for the RL"
Queens Park": "we are only funding phase one of the RL until every GTA municipality fulfils their transit wish list so that they could finally shut up, also depends on buy-elections and Tim Hudak"

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Toronto Transit planning 101:
1. North York already has 3 subway lines
2. Scarborough only gets 3 stations
3. Therefore we must build the Scarborough subway first,
4. then extend the Sheppard line.
5. All other LRTs must be replaced by subways, because subways
6. Build it and the money will come

Please don't equate Rob Ford to Toronto.