Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

I thought it was a good report because they really focussed on the need to make GO more of an express type service and they slaughtered the Transit City lines' raison d'etre.

However, I disagree that the DRL and Eglinton lines are bad. DRL is needed regardless of what happens with GO, and Eglinton could just do with some stations eliminated.

The caveat that the writer used to work for UTDC shows in the writer's bias for ALRT, whereas subway or LRT could perform the exact same function, depending on the case.

They didn't say Eglinton was bad, they said that it should have been built as a ALRT, 100% grade separated from the beginning. They are recommending that for an extra 800M$, the line be elevated in the east. They criticized TTC for grossly underestimate the ridership which to them was very high

It seems that Hudak might use this document as a legit Transit Plan since that looks like what he wants to do.
 
A few years ago, similar assumptions were made about NYCC and STC as justification to build a subway. Why are we speculating again?

NYCC isn't dense? That's some pretty strange logic. You can certainly point out there is a lack of projected jobs there but to suggest the subway station didn't create density is....impossible.

We aren't speculating. As I said above, we are trying to build something more sustainable in the suburbs. The province -as I'm sure you know - created legislation to foster intensification. That's why we are trying to link transit expansion and development. It all sees very straightforward to me. What you should be hoping/saying is that we need to learn from the shortfalls of NYCC and Scarborough to make sure places like VMC and these two centres can realize their potential.

The need for the subway (to get back on thread!) and the need for Markham and Richmond Hill to stop building sprawling subdivisions are inherently and inextricably linked.

@andrewpmkg
Salsa is kicking it with the graphics. (I see there is a Langstaff/RHC thread but it's been mostly dormant, alas...). Hopefully everyone understands the two halves etc. Its a new thing to wrap your head around.

There will be plenty of schools and other facilities. What they are trying to do is to design them with a different form than a traditional school, with a big football field etc. The idea is to have shared facilities so it might take up a couple of floors in a building that also has a community centre, so they can share a pool or a library or whatever. All that stuff is in the plan. The plan is ambitious, but it's not hare-brain
 
They didn't say Eglinton was bad, they said that it should have been built as a ALRT, 100% grade separated from the beginning. They are recommending that for an extra 800M$, the line be elevated in the east. They criticized TTC for grossly underestimate the ridership which to them was very high

It seems that Hudak might use this document as a legit Transit Plan since that looks like what he wants to do.

The legit transit plan which calls for not building the DRL, ok.
 
Re. RHC. My concern is that it appears that the development plan was created as the raisan d'etre for the subway plan. As much as both plans sort of developed at the same time and or parallel to each other it is difficult to shake the perception that the RHC plan was created just so that the subway could be justified. In all honesty is there any document (Places to grow act, etc, etc) that specifies that RHC/Markam MUST build 30, 40, 50 story towers in order to meet mandated density targets? Could this density be spread out more evenly, as with the avenues plan which shows (for example) eglinton ave could be intensified with 5 - 10 story developments along it's entire length vs pockets of 30-40 story surrounded by single family homes.

Re. Neptis vis a vis GO. I think someone said it best that GO is a sorely ignored piece in the region's transit puzzle. Electrification of the system, starting with Lakeshore, Kitchener, and Milton, seems like one of those quick wins that should have been implemented right from the release of the big move. However the problem is that GO still views itself as peak period commuter system vs a full on transit agency. I think this mindset, combined with the high entry cost to move to bi-directional all day service (electrification of network, purchase of EMU's, EM Locomotives, network and staff planning for all day service) is making the proposition un appealing when doing the cost/benefit analysis.
 
You can certainly point out there is a lack of projected jobs there but to suggest the subway station didn't create density is....impossible.

I was being specific to jobs. Many, many, many on this board said lack of jobs in those centers regardless of density is a good reason why subways would not have been built in NYCC and shouldn't go to STC. Althought I'm not disputing the future density of RHC, what are the job projection for that centre?
 
The legit transit plan which calls for not building the DRL, ok.

They did pointed out that they had insufficient data about the DRL as Metrolinx and the TTC just started doing a new study. All of their conclusions comes from data collected from both TTC and Metrolinx. They're not from here after all and their flawed assumptions on the DRL is based on a lack of data.

They are spot on about GO extension and Transit City using the wrong designs and technology. The report clearly demonstrates how botched, incomplete and misleading the Transit City studies during Miller's era were. Deliberately underestimate ridership on some lines versus the others and not studying light metro or elevating rapid transit just so all the studies would conclude that at grade LRT were the only options.

Pretty legit to me...
 
Re. RHC. My concern is that it appears that the development plan was created as the raisan d'etre for the subway plan. As much as both plans sort of developed at the same time and or parallel to each other it is difficult to shake the perception that the RHC plan was created just so that the subway could be justified. In all honesty is there any document (Places to grow act, etc, etc) that specifies that RHC/Markam MUST build 30, 40, 50 story towers in order to meet mandated density targets? Could this density be spread out more evenly, as with the avenues plan which shows (for example) eglinton ave could be intensified with 5 - 10 story developments along it's entire length vs pockets of 30-40 story surrounded by single family homes.

This is both a chicken/egg question and a self-answered question.
There IS a larger corridor/nodes policy in effect...
http://candc.york.ca/

Yonge Street is a corridor, this is a node. (Highway 7 and Bathurst Street are among the other designated corridors in the area.) The development along both is not mutually exclusive, quite the contrary really. BUT they are trying to concentrate density at the transit. If you want to intensify and not just add a ton of people in cars, you need to have transit as the raison d'etre or you're solving one problem and creating another.

The plan isn't a raison d'etre for the subway and, really, the idea of building TOD in this area goes back something like 20 years. Don't forget there is already GO right here and YRT and the new Viva BRT and the planned Transitway. That's all there even without the subway. The fact that it's on Yonge Street, just a few miles north of the current terminus makes it seem a rather obvious extension to me; it's the final piece of the puzzle and when you look at a map, with all those lines converging, the subway stopping just short really does seem like a missing link.

They don't have to concentrate so much development in these areas because of the subway but, really, how can we not want them to? Vaughan (IMHO) barely met the density targets for VMC and that's why they're opening more sprawling development. Going above the targets - saying, "Give me a subway and I'll give you a kind of suburban development you haven't seen!" - is what we want. I can't say "they can do this," but I can definitely say I think it's a good thing to try.


I was being specific to jobs. Many, many, many on this board said lack of jobs in those centers regardless of density is a good reason why subways would not have been built in NYCC and shouldn't go to STC. Althought I'm not disputing the future density of RHC, what are the job projection for that centre?

Job projections are 15K for RHC (so 1:1 ratio) and another 15K for Langstaff (so a 1:2 ratio).

One other thing I'd add is that there is a complex phasing regime for Langstaff. If they aren't hitting targets (in terms of density and jobs, and modal share), the next phase doesn't go forward. Maybe a developer can get around that down the road, but that's what's on paper.
 
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If this critique is taken seriously by politicians, then there is really no hope for transit in the GTA.

Hudak will likely jump on that report but at least he supports the DRL.

It seems that their criticism of the DRL seems mostly based on economics:

Put simply, the scheme in its current form is not worthwhile, costing more than it delivers. However, incremental revenues appear to cover incremental operating costs. This fact could explain why TTC supports the scheme; if the capital cost can be covered, TTC will make a profit on the operations.
 
Hudak will likely jump on that report but at least he supports the DRL.

It seems that their criticism of the DRL seems mostly based on economics:

This is really for other thread but almost all their arguments are based on economics. It's a good lens through which to start looking at things but it misses a lot of the big picture and-on-the-ground realities, IMHO.

I really like the idea of turbo-charging GO but I don't think it's enough to replace the DRL. (Maybe it's enough to allow the Yonge extension to go forward and GO can pick up the slack until the DRL is ready, however ;))

I don't think anyone thinks The Big Move is perfect (nor was Transit City, mos def) but they're both good starts towards thinking big. And no one said the Big Move was set in stone either. They're revising it already and once they have money there will obviously be reconsideration of individual projects.
 
On Richmond Hill Centre and Langstaff Gateway:

Has everyone forgotten the wonderful Ontario act called Places to Grow? You know, where the act that tells municipalities within and outside the Greenbelt that they have to intensify?

RHC and Markham would probably not choose to create centres like the above masterplans, but they have to. And if you're building all these centres, you have to link them with reliable transit.
 
On Richmond Hill Centre and Langstaff Gateway:

Has everyone forgotten the wonderful Ontario act called Places to Grow? You know, where the act that tells municipalities within and outside the Greenbelt that they have to intensify?

RHC and Markham would probably not choose to create centres like the above masterplans, but they have to. And if you're building all these centres, you have to link them with reliable transit.

This plan is so much better then the suburbs in other places, though.
 
They didn't say Eglinton was bad, they said that it should have been built as a ALRT, 100% grade separated from the beginning. They are recommending that for an extra 800M$, the line be elevated in the east. They criticized TTC for grossly underestimate the ridership which to them was very high

It seems that Hudak might use this document as a legit Transit Plan since that looks like what he wants to do.

Of course he won't use this document as a plan. His plan is to cancle just about every RT project in the Province of Ontario with the exception of Relief Line and Yonge.

Well that's not exactly true. He says he may support more if "efficiencies" are found. But we all know that's conservative double speak for, "we don't know what we're doing. We don't know how to pay for it". Equivalent to Rob Ford using private sector faries to pay for everything.
 

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