Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[gweed123]

^ Seems like a moot point since 1) based on everything I've read there is no appetite to detach/decouple Yonge and University (and some have said here it can't practically be done) 2) it's hard enough to see when a DRL might reach Eglinton, never mind north of it, so planning all that and getting it funded and built within a small enough time frame to pacify York Region is very optimistic at best, and 3) to continue sounding like a broken record, Yonge has a completed E.A. with at least three governments willing to fund it the next time transit money is thrown around, while the DRL has close to nothing.

Yonge will happen, and there is no getting around that.

1) The decoupling is just a thing I added, the Richmond Hill Subway proposal can happen without that.

2) It's been stated several times that the Yonge extension shouldn't happen before the DRL (stated by the TTC, stated by Metrolinx, and even stated by York Region themselves), otherwise the Yonge line will be overloaded. This makes the "state of readiness" of the Yonge extension borderline irrelevant, because it's in a holding pattern until the DRL is figured out. The fact that it has an EA and stuff ready is great, but I believe there is time to at least study the merit of alternative proposals, especially when it's directly linked to the DRL, which is going to be extensively studied anyway.

Gweed. I notice your map includes an extension of the yonge line up to Steeles. I guess that section won't place any added burdon on the yonge line, or is that an acceptable cost to accommodate development on North yonge within Toronto's borders?

What your plan will not provide is a transportation link between north York centre and Richmond Hill centre as envisioned in places to grow. I happen to live at yonge and steeles and can say with all honesty that if I'm going shopping I'm more likely to travel north to Richmond Hill than south to North York or Toronto. for dining and entertainment I am more likely to go south.

Our nodal growth strategy is about creating urban centres throughout the region. Not linking two adjoining centres, North York and RH centre is effectively isolating them.

I included it as a dashed "Phase 2", much like I included a Sheppard West extension in Phase 2. I added that for a couple of reasons: 1) Because, like you stated, it won't add any extra burden to the Yonge line. 2) It will support the northward extension of NYCC along the Yonge corridor (it's already stretching north of Finch), and 3) It will allow VIVA to build a proper terminal at Steeles, with an easier transfer to the subway.

As for the connection from NYCC to RHC, I've stated previously (although it's not shown on the map, so I probably should add that) that a VIVA BRT along Yonge would be more than enough to handle the demand. Under the current subway scheme, the Yonge BRT coming from north of Highway 7 will terminate at RHC. If the Richmond Hill Subway is built, that BRT can continue south along Yonge to either Finch or Steeles (wherever the Yonge terminus may be).

This way, riders have two options if they're riding southbound on Yonge at say 16th Ave: Transfer to the subway at RHC, or stay on the VIVA bus and go to Finch/Steeles. If most people are bound for downtown, they will probably choose the former, as it will be moderately faster and less crowded. People bound for NYCC will likely choose the latter. Point is they're both good, rapid transit options.

Another point to raise is that there's no reason why the subway needs to stop at RHC. Since this would be effectively replacing the Richmond Hill GO line, York Region could choose to cough up a little bit extra (or hey, Toronto could pitch in a bit for some of the surface section inside of Toronto, freeing up funds to push it further north), and extend the subway to 16th Ave or Major Mac. Since it would be a surface extension replacing an existing rail line that has grade-separations in place already for most of it's length, it would be a pretty inexpensive stretch of subway to build.

 

[xtremesniper]

Le's say tomorrow, York abandons the idea of a subway, decides to build a Bus Rapid Transit on dedicated lanes between Major Mackenzie and Finch.

York pays the full cost of $20m per KM for all 10.2 KM, including extra charges, the tab comes in at around $210 Million. In addition they buy 22 newly built Bombardier Super buses, (which coincidentally have the identical passenger capacity of the TTC's new streetcars of 256 passengers) for maybe $50 million. Lets round the project to $275 Million in order to make easy transfers from BRT to Subway at Finch.

Spacing the vehicles 1 minute (about 1 km) apart and giving them traffic light signal priority, the trip would take 22 minutes in each direction and would have the capacity to carry somewhere around 10,000 per hour during peak times.

Toronto pays nothing for the project, Billions in tax dollars are saved, York gets rapid transit in this essential location and the entire project can be completed in just 2 years. Sounds like a win for everyone...Except those waiting on the platform at Davisville as 3 full subways pass them buy.

Is it even possible to improve transit in the Yonge corridor between Finch and Hwy 7 without adding pressure to the Yonge subway line? What can be done to improve transit on this section of Yonge which is admittedly one of the busiest stretches in the GTA? Should these residents of the North end of Toronto and the south end of York Region be expected to wait till things improve in Toronto before moving ahead on all transit projects?

I think you are missing the part where that increased capacity of people who still want to go to North York Centre or Sheppard will still have to transfer onto the Yonge subway at Finch at some point or another. That station is already at capacity as it is a transit hub with thousands of parking spots.

So instead of moving the "hub" nature of Finch up to Steeles or beyond, discouraging people coming from the 905 from driving to park at Finch, your solution is just going to keep the existing pressure on Finch while adding a lot more onto it.

 

[Rainforest]

In response to several posts above:

1) BRT on Yonge running at 1-min frequency and having a transit priority is impossible, as it would totally block all E-W streets, including public transit on them. The highest practical frequency would be, I assume, either 3 min with transit priority, or 2 min but without transit priority at Steeles, Cummer/Drewry, and Clarke.

2) The gweed123's suggestion to take DRL East subway to Richmond Hill along the RH GO corridor is interesting, in principle. But there is a number of obstacles:
- Its prerequisite, DRL between Danforth and Eglinton, is not even on Metrolinx's map
- Even if DRL already reached Eglinton, I assume that the cost of 16-km subway from Eglinton/Don Mills to RHC will be much higher than the cost of 7-km subway from Yonge/Finch to RHC. If the former is partly at grade in the RH GO corridor, it would reduce the costs somewhat but still be more expensive than, say, surface LRT.
- There will be a lot of complains from the locals along the surface sections of the RH GO line if it goes from 30+ min GO/freight frequencies to 3-4 min subway frequencies.

3) Torontonians do not pay less than 905-ers in property taxes. The mill rate in Toronto may be lower, but that is offset by higher average house prices. Not that it matters in the context of subway expansion, as any such expansion will be funded from sources other than municipal property taxes.

4) Subway extension along Yonge to RHC is probably the best solution for this corridor. However, it must happen either after DRL, or in parallel with DRL. The relation between Yonge North and DRL is not a matter of fiscal balance, and not a matter of fairness to 905 vs 416 etc. It is a simple technical requirement. In order for the Yonge subway to remain manageable after the extension, it needs a substantial number of downtown-bound riders diverted to DRL.

It would be helpful if York Region accepted that relation, and started pushing for both subways instead of just "their" Yonge North. It will not happen without DRL. One can say that York Region is not obligated to push for a subway in another municipality, especially since Toronto dragged its own feet until recently. To that, I would point that York would not be spending exclusively "their" funds in the pooled transit revenue system that Metrolinx is building. Funding for both lines will come from the common Metrolinx purse.

 

[gweed123]

2) The gweed123's suggestion to take DRL East subway to Richmond Hill along the RH GO corridor is interesting, in principle. But there is a number of obstacles:
- Its prerequisite, DRL between Danforth and Eglinton, is not even on Metrolinx's map
- Even if DRL already reached Eglinton, I assume that the cost of 16-km subway from Eglinton/Don Mills to RHC will be much higher than the cost of 7-km subway from Yonge/Finch to RHC. If the former is partly at grade in the RH GO corridor, it would reduce the costs somewhat but still be more expensive than, say, surface LRT.
- There will be a lot of complains from the locals along the surface sections of the RH GO line if it goes from 30+ min GO/freight frequencies to 3-4 min subway frequencies

Good points. A few things:

1) The DRL was only recently moved up to the Priority list for Metrolinx (it was on the 25yr plan before). The Danforth to Eglinton stretch of the DRL is certainly needed, and I think tacking the Richmond Hill Subway onto the north end of it would put it over the top.

2) I did the math on the graphic as well. The North Yonge extension is $3.4 billion for 6km, so $566 million/km (according to the most recent YR report). From Eglinton to the Richmond Hill GO tracks is 2.5km, which ends up being $1.415 billion if you use the same per km cost as North Yonge. From that point to RHC is 13km, and for that $150 million/km is a very reasonable estimate. That's $1.95 billion. Total? $3.4 billion. Yup, you can do it for the same cost as the North Yonge extension.

3) To those people I'd say "yes, but most of you are now within walking distance on a subway station that will take you right downtown". For most people, that would be a pretty big plus. They would also be electric trains, so the 2 main complaints that Weston residents have had about the Georgetown corridor (more diesel trains + no increased transit access) wouldn't exist in this case.

 

[sixrings]

Good points. A few things:

1) The DRL was only recently moved up to the Priority list for Metrolinx (it was on the 25yr plan before). The Danforth to Eglinton stretch of the DRL is certainly needed, and I think tacking the Richmond Hill Subway onto the north end of it would put it over the top.

2) I did the math on the graphic as well. The North Yonge extension is $3.4 billion for 6km, so $566 million/km (according to the most recent YR report). From Eglinton to the Richmond Hill GO tracks is 2.5km, which ends up being $1.415 billion if you use the same per km cost as North Yonge. From that point to RHC is 13km, and for that $150 million/km is a very reasonable estimate. That's $1.95 billion. Total? $3.4 billion. Yup, you can do it for the same cost as the North Yonge extension.

3) To those people I'd say "yes, but most of you are now within walking distance on a subway station that will take you right downtown". For most people, that would be a pretty big plus. They would also be electric trains, so the 2 main complaints that Weston residents have had about the Georgetown corridor (more diesel trains + no increased transit access) wouldn't exist in this case.

Could we not simply build Yonge to Richmond hill subway as planned and then build Gweeds line from FINCH to DUFFERIN/BLOOR (eliminate the decoupling and make it one line) as the DRL? Personally I like Gweeds eastern map but I would marry it to a converted ARL in the west.

 

[sixrings]

Gweeds version in one line VS decoupling

 

[BurlOak]

Could the Eastern leg continue up Don Mills to Seneca College (and maybe beyond)? It could be elevated for a good portion north of Eglinton. There could also be a GO line along the current alignment with improved frequency that connects to Sheppard subway and the DRL. I also think that both of these should be built before Yonge. Many of the buses to Finch Station could be redirected to the top of the DRL, or up to the GO line - I am sure they could then find a way to extend the Yonge line for less than $566 / km.

I have not thought about the west leg that much, but generally I prefer a non-railway alignment since making connecting the Brampton - Union - Markham GO lines with increased frequency makes a lot of sense.

This way, there would be 4 high frequency service to York Region - Spadina line, Yonge, DRL (could also be extended to highway 7) and the Markham GO.

 

[Rainforest]

Good points. A few things:

1) The DRL was only recently moved up to the Priority list for Metrolinx (it was on the 25yr plan before). The Danforth to Eglinton stretch of the DRL is certainly needed, and I think tacking the Richmond Hill Subway onto the north end of it would put it over the top.

2) I did the math on the graphic as well. The North Yonge extension is $3.4 billion for 6km, so $566 million/km (according to the most recent YR report). From Eglinton to the Richmond Hill GO tracks is 2.5km, which ends up being $1.415 billion if you use the same per km cost as North Yonge. From that point to RHC is 13km, and for that $150 million/km is a very reasonable estimate. That's $1.95 billion. Total? $3.4 billion. Yup, you can do it for the same cost as the North Yonge extension.

3) To those people I'd say "yes, but most of you are now within walking distance on a subway station that will take you right downtown". For most people, that would be a pretty big plus. They would also be electric trains, so the 2 main complaints that Weston residents have had about the Georgetown corridor (more diesel trains + no increased transit access) wouldn't exist in this case.

I'm afraid I have objections on all 3 points

1) Although it is highly desirable to take DRL East from Danforth to Eglinton; as it stands now, such extension is not guaranteed. Therefore, your proposed configuration is harder to fund than the baseline (DRL Phase I plus Yonge extension).

2) There may be places where you will have to tunnel along the RH GO alignment, particularly to build stations at some of the major concessions. Even when you stay on surface and just use the existing corridor, I doubt that the surface subway will cost just 27% of the tunneled subway as in your estimate (150 vs 566 M/km). It is known that tunneling normally makes less than 50% of the total subway cost. As a first estimate, I would cost each surface subway kilometer at 60-70% of the tunneled one.

Of course, it would be interesting if somebody did a more detailed analysis.

3) RH line passes next to rather wealthy neighborhoods, where many residents drive rather than take subway. I personally would agree with you that a subway station at the walking distance more than makes for some extra noise. But other people will think otherwise, and their ability to create delays cannot be underestimated.

Just recently, very few residents living at Leslie / Eglinton managed to force Metrolinx to go back to surface alignment for the Eglinton LRT in that section, thus restoring the Leslie station, but at the price of cutting the capacity limit of that critically important section by 1/3.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

From Finch? Two km, and two stops (Cummer and Steeles) as per the proposed extension.

Thanks. So two stations should not cost more then 200 million.

 

[BurlOak]

I'm afraid I have objections on all 3 points

1) Although it is highly desirable to take DRL East from Danforth to Eglinton; as it stands now, such extension is not guaranteed. Therefore, your proposed configuration is harder to fund than the baseline (DRL Phase I plus Yonge extension).

I actually think that it is easier to fund the full DRL than a short one. The most expensive part (per km) is the downtown portion, and many do not see a huge advantage of the DRL to the suburbs. By extending the subway north to the suburbs, you can get a broader acceptance to the plan.

2) There may be places where you will have to tunnel along the RH GO alignment, particularly to build stations at some of the major concessions. Even when you stay on surface and just use the existing corridor, I doubt that the surface subway will cost just 27% of the tunneled subway as in your estimate (150 vs 566 M/km). It is known that tunneling normally makes less than 50% of the total subway cost. As a first estimate, I would cost each surface subway kilometer at 60-70% of the tunneled one.

Of course, it would be interesting if somebody did a more detailed analysis.

The $566M is ridiculously high. $150 is 50% of the reasonable cost of a subway per km.

3) RH line passes next to rather wealthy neighborhoods, where many residents drive rather than take subway. I personally would agree with you that a subway station at the walking distance more than makes for some extra noise. But other people will think otherwise, and their ability to create delays cannot be underestimated.

Just recently, very few residents living at Leslie / Eglinton managed to force Metrolinx to go back to surface alignment for the Eglinton LRT in that section, thus restoring the Leslie station, but at the price of cutting the capacity limit of that critically important section by 1/3.

I think these residents only managed to stop this because Metrolinx has no support from the Province or City Council to build the line. These levels of government know that the median option is not popular and thus they left Metrolinx on their own.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Folks, there's like 20 things wrong with Gweed's plan and I think people have found most of them.

Two simple examples I'll chip in: 1) Assuming that per/km subway costs will be the same in different areas 2) assuming that the BRT-inspired development on Hwy 7 shows yonge will be just fine with BRT as if they're not zoned with entirely different densities. Why is it so hard to grasp the concept of transit-oriented development at specific locations?

But really this all shows the larger problem with this thread, as I said above, of people treating it as "hypothetical plans for serving the area north of Toronto."

The plan is there. It;s a regional priority and a provincial priority. The EA is done, the route is selected. There's nothing wrong with dreaming up alternatives but let's understand the difference between reality and hypotheticals already.

 

[GenerationW]

Thanks. So two stations should not cost more then 200 million.

I think at least $600M since the standard cost cited is $300M/km. But that doesn't matter since the stop-at-Steeles ship has sailed. It's pretty much a given this extension will go to Richmond Hill whenever it's built.

I actually think that it is easier to fund the full DRL than a short one. The most expensive part (per km) is the downtown portion, and many do not see a huge advantage of the DRL to the suburbs. By extending the subway north to the suburbs, you can get a broader acceptance to the plan.

How will it be easier with municipalities jockeying for position with their preferred projects? Even with transit taxes, there are limits to how much money is available. Federal funding might be needed to get phase one of a DRL to Eglinton.

 

[Conrad Black]

Assuming the current funding plan gets pushed through there will be more than enough money over the next 25-50 years to build an extension to Eglinton. Just need for it to be on the priority list. Federal funds would be a bonus.

 

[cplchanb]

wow....25-50 years.... so i guess most of us wont be able to use when it finally gets finished in time for our grandchildren....
in all seriousness regardless of the alignment we need to come up with some type of money and approval fast if Toronto is to stay only 30 years behind other cities around the world...

 

[BurlOak]

How will it be easier with municipalities jockeying for position with their preferred projects? Even with transit taxes, there are limits to how much money is available. Federal funding might be needed to get phase one of a DRL to Eglinton.

A DRL from Union to Danforth would only appeal to the people in the core. The City's DRL study last year even showed that there would be very minimal relief, and the number of transfers from Bloor to Yonge would actually go up in 2031 when it was projected to open. Those taking the Yonge and Danforth subways sense that it will not do much for them.

If it is extended north, then Scarborough, North York, Markham, Richmond Hill, as well as old Toronto, would all support it.