innsertnamehere
Superstar
The DRL is a no go without the DRL? well that is confusing.
Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx
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TheTigerMaster
Superstar
The DRL is a no go without the DRL? well that is confusing.
Is what I said not true? There is no DRL without the DRL. Something that dosen't exist dosen't exist. C'mon man, even babies understand this
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jaycola
Active Member
Le's say tomorrow, York abandons the idea of a subway, decides to build a Bus Rapid Transit on dedicated lanes between Major Mackenzie and Finch.
York pays the full cost of $20m per KM for all 10.2 KM, including extra charges, the tab comes in at around $210 Million. In addition they buy 22 newly built Bombardier Super buses, (which coincidentally have the identical passenger capacity of the TTC's new streetcars of 256 passengers) for maybe $50 million. Lets round the project to $275 Million in order to make easy transfers from BRT to Subway at Finch.
Spacing the vehicles 1 minute (about 1 km) apart and giving them traffic light signal priority, the trip would take 22 minutes in each direction and would have the capacity to carry somewhere around 10,000 per hour during peak times.
Toronto pays nothing for the project, Billions in tax dollars are saved, York gets rapid transit in this essential location and the entire project can be completed in just 2 years. Sounds like a win for everyone...Except those waiting on the platform at Davisville as 3 full subways pass them buy.
Is it even possible to improve transit in the Yonge corridor between Finch and Hwy 7 without adding pressure to the Yonge subway line? What can be done to improve transit on this section of Yonge which is admittedly one of the busiest stretches in the GTA? Should these residents of the North end of Toronto and the south end of York Region be expected to wait till things improve in Toronto before moving ahead on all transit projects?
York pays the full cost of $20m per KM for all 10.2 KM, including extra charges, the tab comes in at around $210 Million. In addition they buy 22 newly built Bombardier Super buses, (which coincidentally have the identical passenger capacity of the TTC's new streetcars of 256 passengers) for maybe $50 million. Lets round the project to $275 Million in order to make easy transfers from BRT to Subway at Finch.
Spacing the vehicles 1 minute (about 1 km) apart and giving them traffic light signal priority, the trip would take 22 minutes in each direction and would have the capacity to carry somewhere around 10,000 per hour during peak times.
Toronto pays nothing for the project, Billions in tax dollars are saved, York gets rapid transit in this essential location and the entire project can be completed in just 2 years. Sounds like a win for everyone...Except those waiting on the platform at Davisville as 3 full subways pass them buy.
Is it even possible to improve transit in the Yonge corridor between Finch and Hwy 7 without adding pressure to the Yonge subway line? What can be done to improve transit on this section of Yonge which is admittedly one of the busiest stretches in the GTA? Should these residents of the North end of Toronto and the south end of York Region be expected to wait till things improve in Toronto before moving ahead on all transit projects?
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TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Of course there are ways to improve transit on the Yonge corridor. As long as those improvements don't involve any connections to the Yonge Subway.
Yes. I don't see why not. You wouldn't build an apartment building on a foundation designed for a bungalow. This is essentially the same thing. York Region needs to wait until there is more capacity on Yonge before going forward with any projects. If they don't, the Yonge subway won't work for anybody, regardless of if they are north or south of Steeles.
And by wait, I don't mean that the Yonge extension can't be built. Nothing would make me happier than to see shovels in the ground today. But it shouldn't open until the DRL is operational.
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cplchanb
Senior Member
you forgot the political upheaval fee of $1B the sole source Bombardier markup of 10%, plus the never ending tender and EA period of X years....
Don't get me wrong I think your idea brings merit, but unfortunately bureaucracy counts for about 99% of the stuff that happens around here these days..
jaycola
Active Member
I just picked Bombardier because of the pretty new streetcars they are delivering. They look a lot like the German built bus and have the same passenger capacity. I always prefer to buy Canadian..even from Quebec. These two vehicles have identical passenger capacity so I assume we can build something like it in Canada.
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TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Honestly, it's crazy, for a bunch of reasons:
-First, the Metrolinx Benefits Case analysis decisively states that BRT is insufficient for the corridor. You could MAYBE make the argument for LRT, if it made sense to have someone going north transfer to a subway to LRT to BRT in the space of 10 km.
-Second, York Region already has a "brand" with the Viva buses and I don't know they're looking to have a fourth bus (including YRT) in the fleet.
-Third, even if the BRT somehow made sense (and, it doesn't), it would only make sense if it went all the way to Finch (i.e. in Toronto). I guess York Region is paying for the Steeles-Finch segment while the fine people of Willowdale get to enjoy it, for free?
-Fourth...I'm sorry, I have to come back to this. You think it's a good idea to have a CONSTANT stream of buses (i.e. 1 every minute!) running down the street? I know we're short on transit funding but have you heard about this whole "greenhouse gas" thing people keep talking about? how often are you going to have to repave? Really, BRT might move buses more efficiently but that system is just totally ill-equipped to handle this population; this plan addresses rather narrow concerns when it comes to transit, the environment and growth planning in the region.
-Fifth, for the 20th time, you do that, you kill development and create more urban sprawl. Everyone knows (right?) that a subway generates the most development and everyone on this board should sure know by now that the Yonge/7 terminus is designated as major transit hub. If you built a BRT, you get less development (maybe even NONE on major sites, like the car dealerships north of Steeles, or the area where Silver City now sits) and ensure that more people moving to York Region buy on greenfield sites.
Then, since you've also killed mixed-use development and the possibility of employment nodes outside the core, they can quickly overwhelm this BRT system you've built, and the rest of the TTC, as they trek down to their jobs in Toronto.
-Sixth...honestly, I don't want to be snide but for $220M why not just buy a whole parking lot of mini-vans along with a dedicated lane and people can pick-up and drop them off like Bixi bikes? I mean, while we're saving money, screwing the environment, sterilizing prime developable sites and otherwise trying to remind "the suburbs" where they stand in the scheme of things, in relation to "the city"? Maybe we can just pay them that money to move to the other side of the greenbelt and stop bugging Torontonians with all their problems?
The entire raison d'etre behind this plan, it seems to me, is throwing the suburbs a bone (and not a good bone, like a femur...more like a knuckle), while Toronto taxpayers (the most under-taxed citizens of the entire GTA, I might add) pay not a cent. As a transit plan, I confess I find it somewhat lacking. It's not a win for anyone, and has about as much logic, in terms of transit planning, as Rob Ford's plan for building subways everywhere with no money at all.
Those are, you know, the main problems I see, off-hand.
The good news? York Region has zero intention of abandoning the extension tomorrow or any time soon. People who don't like it might find it hard to stomach, but of all the unfunded transit pipe dreams from Niagara Falls to Peterborough, it's the closes to reality.
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Here's the thing: the bulk of the ridership on the Yonge corridor south of Highway 7 is actually coming from north of Highway 7 (or transferring FROM Highway 7). It's only through narrow thinking that this ridership MUST continue down Yonge.
You could build a subway from the corner of Eglinton & Don Mills to RHC via Don Mills and the Richmond Hill GO line for the same cost as building the Yonge Subway extension. It would:
1) Divert York Region riders off the Yonge line entirely, instead of the current plan which is to divert Toronto riders off the Yonge line instead (DRL).
2) Allow York Region to build BRT lanes along Yonge from RHC to Finch, and not have them being overcrowded (since the bulk of the ridership that, as I stated earlier is coming from north of Hwy 7, would be diverted onto the new subway instead). The BRT corridor would serve the people along the Yonge corridor south of Hwy 7, and also those people who are going to destinations in northern Toronto along the Yonge corridor (NYCC comes to mind). Ridership in that case would be well within the capabilities of BRT.
3) It would make the Sheppard line more useful, because it would be a connection between Sheppard-Leslie and Sheppard-Yonge. Extend Sheppard westward and you'd be connecting 3 N-S lines.
4) Open up a lot of capacity in Toronto as well, because below Eglinton it would be the traditional DRL alignment, which would have all the benefits that have been discussed extensively. So you'd be getting relief both more towards the bottom (DRL), and towards the top (diverting YRT riders off Yonge).
5) Be the only way that we would ever see a DRL built north of Eglinton in our lifetimes. The money is already there for it north of Eglinton (North Yonge extension, with a nearly identical pricetag), and south of Eglinton needs to happen anyway. Two projects that can be combined into one.
6) Be a far better use of $3.4 billion as far as Torontonians would be concerned, because this line would benefit them a heck of a lot more than a Yonge extension would. In fact, for most a Yonge extension would be a net detriment. Think of how much residents taking the Finch and Steeles East buses would feel having stations at Finch & Leslie, and just west of Steeles & Leslie. Or riders on the York Mills bus having a station just east of York Mills & Leslie. Having those stations there would drop the number of riders taking the bus all the way to Yonge by a huge amount, further relieving the Yonge line.
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jaycola
Active Member
I am not actually a proponent of the plan I put forth and to be honest pulled all of my numbers out of thin air.
I agree that development plans along this corridor are dependent upon a Subway and Toronto, Markham, Vaughan and Richmond Hill all have development plans for the Yonge corridor that are desirable in their urban nature and density goals. Yonge Street is the spine of this city (GTA) an developing it to it's maximum potential is in my opinion desirable. Tens of thousands of people will find their homes and jobs on Yonge from finch through to Major Mackenzie (and north) over the next couple decades and high order transit is necessary in order to accommodate them.
The point I was making is that improvements made by York will put added pressure on the Yonge subway.
Just to review the plans.
Toronto-Yonge Finch to Steeles
Markham Yonge-Steeles to Clark
Vaughan: Yonge-Steeles to Clark
Markham: Langstaff Gateway Yonge-South of Hwy 7.
Richmond Hill: Yonge-North of Hwy 7
I agree that development plans along this corridor are dependent upon a Subway and Toronto, Markham, Vaughan and Richmond Hill all have development plans for the Yonge corridor that are desirable in their urban nature and density goals. Yonge Street is the spine of this city (GTA) an developing it to it's maximum potential is in my opinion desirable. Tens of thousands of people will find their homes and jobs on Yonge from finch through to Major Mackenzie (and north) over the next couple decades and high order transit is necessary in order to accommodate them.
The point I was making is that improvements made by York will put added pressure on the Yonge subway.
Just to review the plans.
Toronto-Yonge Finch to Steeles
Markham Yonge-Steeles to Clark
Vaughan: Yonge-Steeles to Clark
Markham: Langstaff Gateway Yonge-South of Hwy 7.
Richmond Hill: Yonge-North of Hwy 7
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Sigh. I feel like there's fundamental things people here keep missing. This exercise is not entirely about the best way to move people in and out of Toronto. It is, certainly for York Region and the province, far more about building suburbs differently. The subway is a means to an end. (And I'm sorry if I sound snippy; I know some people are just putting ideas out there, and it IS stimulating, but it's also largely pointless. That said, thanks to Jaycola for putting those maps up again while I was typing.)
The province (and, by law, the region and lower-tier municipalities) have already designated several places on Yonge, and the corridor, in general, as nodes for major growth. That's done. Even if building a subway along Don Mills was cheaper, it fundamentally undermines the ENTIRE growth strategy for the Greater Golden Horseshoe. Your plan is totally antithetical to what is in the York Region Official Plan (and Toronto's Avenues strategy, FWIW) though, like Jaycola's strategy, it might be more palatable to Toronto taxpayers. I'm not sure that should be the most important thing, or even under consideration, when we're talking about how to undo the planning mistakes of the past couple of generations.
I know some other people here get that but others have to stop looking at this as the best place to draw a line on a map or save money. You're doing it backwards. You START by looking at where the growth is supposed to go and how to service and facilitate it. Really, if you want to start developing major north-south corridors other than Yonge Street, you're at least 60 years too late, and maybe 100. Maybe longer. Yonge is Yonge. It's the main artery of York Region and Toronto. Period.
I like the idea of taking the DRL up Don Mills but that is NOT a replacement for the Yonge plan. North of Finch, Don Mills is effectively residential, meaning there is ZERO potential for redevelopment. Obviously the same goes for the GO line and that's without getting into the technical issues of running subway trains on a CN corridor. Your train is safely off Yonge, and achieving nothing else.
And it doesn't matter what Torontonians think is an efficient use of their money. Firstly, because they're already paying way less in taxes than the 905 and secondly because any Metrolinx funding will be raised regionally.
Lemme say this, in conclusion, and then I won't say it again for a few pages: It's a great intellectual exercise to ponder how the region could look different, where transit should be built, and Urban Toronto is a great place for it. But this thread has become bloated with people trying to undermine or second guess the Yonge subway and it has to just stop already. It's just getting ridiculous, everyone has an idea to move it here or there or save money this way or that way. Just try to remember these things:
*It's a done deal, but for the funding.
*It's perhaps the biggest no-brainer in the whole Big Move in terms of expansion
*It is fundamental not just to The Big Move but to Places to Grow (i.e. the provincial growth strategy)
*It is, by extension, fundamental to the growth management and official plans of York Region, Markham, Vaughan and Richmond Hill
*Some of the best planners in the world were brought in to build new, transit-oriented communities along the subway lines, effectively reinventing the suburbs
*Building anything other than a subway up to Hwy 7=less development
=more urban sprawl
=more traffic going into Toronto
Those are all just facts. Feel free to discuss.
Let me start out by putting this map here, because I think it may better illustrate what I'm trying to convey.
1) There is nothing stopping the Yonge corridor redevelopment from taking place with a BRT instead of a subway line. The subway is needed because of the passengers that will be funnelled down Yonge to Finch that are coming from north of Highway 7, and from the Highway 7 BRT. Highway 7 seems to be redeveloping just fine with Rapidways, I fail to see how Yonge would be any different. Rapid Transit (of any kind) combined with the development demand and the zoning to support it will be the catalyst for the redevelopment of the Yonge corridor. The current proposal is a subway because of everyone that's being fed into RHC. There's no reason at all why those people HAVE to be funnelled down Yonge.
If BRT is good enough for Highway 7, it's good enough for Yonge, assuming that the bulk of the riders are shifted onto a parallel subway route, which they would be if the DRL went to RHC.
2) There's also nothing stopping the Toronto avenues plan from going ahead as it is now. The Spadina line has limited development around it (about as much as the Richmond Hill Subway route would), yet it seems to do pretty well for itself by intercepting E-W bus passengers before they reach Yonge. Building a new subway that doesn't follow one particular street doesn't negate the Avenues plan.
3) I honestly think that development around stations, while nice, is overrated in terms of the importance to the success of the station. Especially in the suburbs, the bulk of the ridership comes from connecting bus routes. And when it comes to bus routes, the DRL to RHC would intersect plenty of well used ones. Just look at Finch West station on the Spadina line. Not exactly a whole lot going on around it, but it will be one of the busiest stations on the extension, simply because of the Finch West bus route. No reason to think a station at Finch East and Leslie would be any different.
4) It's not about JUST getting people into Toronto, but let's not kid ourselves, the bulk of the riders transferring from VIVA to southbound Yonge at Finch today are bound for areas below Bloor St, or certainly below Eglinton.
5) Yes I know it's been in the Big Move since before the Big Move existed, but I don't really think a fair analysis of alternatives was done. The extent of the analysis was: "We have a Growth Centre at RHC, which is right along Yonge. We have a subway that ends at Yonge and Finch. We have a busy bus route along Yonge. Subway to RHC it is!"
It's natural to make such a leap, but with a price tag of $3.4 billion, you have to ask yourself: Is that the optimal way to spend $3.4 billion to move people on this corridor? With a subway along Yonge, you give a big benefit to York Region riders, but a net detriment to everyone else. Not to mention the $ per resident ratio for a subway to York Region is wayyy beyond any other of the priority projects in the Big Move.
I honestly think that a subway along the Richmond Hill GO corridor from north of Eglinton is a much better use of that money. It would benefit far more people, and would have nearly the same benefit to almost all of the people who would be using the Yonge extension.
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GenerationW
Senior Member
^ Seems like a moot point since 1) based on everything I've read there is no appetite to detach/decouple Yonge and University (and some have said here it can't practically be done) 2) it's hard enough to see when a DRL might reach Eglinton, never mind north of it, so planning all that and getting it funded and built within a small enough time frame to pacify York Region is very optimistic at best, and 3) to continue sounding like a broken record, Yonge has a completed E.A. with at least three governments willing to fund it the next time transit money is thrown around, while the DRL has close to nothing.
Yonge will happen, and there is no getting around that.
Yonge will happen, and there is no getting around that.
jaycola
Active Member
Gweed. I notice your map includes an extension of the yonge line up to Steeles. I guess that section won't place any added burdon on the yonge line, or is that an acceptable cost to accommodate development on North yonge within Toronto's borders?
What your plan will not provide is a transportation link between north York centre and Richmond Hill centre as envisioned in places to grow. I happen to live at yonge and steeles and can say with all honesty that if I'm going shopping I'm more likely to travel north to Richmond Hill than south to North York or Toronto. for dining and entertainment I am more likely to go south.
Our nodal growth strategy is about creating urban centres throughout the region. Not linking two adjoining centres, North York and RH centre is effectively isolating them.
What your plan will not provide is a transportation link between north York centre and Richmond Hill centre as envisioned in places to grow. I happen to live at yonge and steeles and can say with all honesty that if I'm going shopping I'm more likely to travel north to Richmond Hill than south to North York or Toronto. for dining and entertainment I am more likely to go south.
Our nodal growth strategy is about creating urban centres throughout the region. Not linking two adjoining centres, North York and RH centre is effectively isolating them.
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denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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Up to steeles is one block though right? I can't believe we're still going on about this.
GenerationW
Senior Member
From Finch? Two km, and two stops (Cummer and Steeles) as per the proposed extension.