Toronto Urban Sprawl Compared to Other Cities

[howl]

I think there are a number of other factors that have affected development patterns in these particular cities:

First is the timing of the development. I suspect the comparative development in London predates the development in Toronto and Atlanta by a few decades, which affects the standard and expectations of the home buyers. National and regional standard and expectations also have to be considered.

Second is land cost - I suspect that land is comparatively much cheaper in Atlanta which results in larger lots.

Third is the scale of the development - developments in Toronto tends to be very large (100's of units) compared to Atlanta (dozens of units) - which is primarily a function of land ownership laws and economic conditions.This affects the connectedness and internal structure of each neighbourhood. While I don't know for sure I get the impression that London's development tended to be on the smaller scale.

Lastly, and this has been mentioned, is the transportation network. Land development patterns are driven by the transportation network in place at the time of construction. Atlanta's MARTA rail system was not constructed until the 1980's, well after the suburban land use patterns had been established. Toronto's TTC and GO Transit rail systems both predated the majority of the suburbs they served so that impacted the form of development in those areas, even though transit was always secondary to the automobile. London's suburbs were always built primarily as commuter rail neighbourhoods.

 

[adma]

I'm very much an urban guy and understand all of the problems that suburbs create, but in terms of purely subjective experience, I'd much rather take those Atlanta suburbs over what's available in the GTA.

Although our planning processes are clearly more effective than what seems to be the case in Georgia, I think the GTA suburbs fully embody the term "soul-sucking." Our suburbs may do better across a variety of metrics, but the human experience is severely lacking. I agree that "London should be what we're striving for," but I can't for the life of me see how we're going to get from here to there anytime soon.

Yet the unfortunate paradox of "why it's so" in Atlanta might have something to do with broader cultural factors, including decades of while/middle-class/whatever flight--that is, Atlanta 'burbs serve a central purpose that, in Toronto, has been rendered redundant by relative inner-urban stability and diversity...

 

[adma]

Actually, most Ontario cities are like that. You can see it in Mississauga, Brampton, Hamilton, London, Ottawa... It's mostly 50s and 60s, although some of the Kaneff buildings in Mississauga are from the early 70s. I think same with Brampton. I remember someone on this forum saying they stopped building them because of rent control, but now apartments are being built en masse again as condominiums.

Though when it comes to true commie/point-block apartment highrisescapes, I'd reconfigure the dating to 60s/early-70s--the more typical 50s apartment pattern was low/midrise a la within the Donway in Don Mills.

And rent control only led to *apartment* construction being curtailed; in fact, high-rise dwellings continued to be built into the 80s in the form of condos, it's nothing new to our time at all and it may even be argued that the existing point-block habit validated high-rise condo construction in suburbia. (By comparison, US-style suburban "condominiums" are more like gated clusters.)

 

[middeljohn]

Guys, I'm in metro Detroit right now and I've barely seen any apartment buildings outside Detroit itself. I'm going to explore some more tomorrow, but so far it's been really sprawling, and I'm in an older region right now (Dearborn).

 

[salsa]

Apartments in suburban detroit? Lol good luck

 

[k10ery]

Here's some further analysis of the effect freeways have on population density and number of highrises. These are only for US cities as I couldn't find everything I needed to do the calculations for Canadian cities. If anyone has a source for Canadian cities' freeway lane miles please send it to me and I'll update it.

I think your problem is that cities with lower density are going to build more freeways, so it's not clear which way causality is running in the regression. Here's another approach to the problem. Data only form the US though:

Highway System Drives City Population Declines, Says Brown Economist

 

[Transportfan]

Data only form the US though.

I always feel so depressed as a Canadian to always see words to that effect on links to studies on UT.

]

 

[Ladies Mile]

I'm no fan of the Toronto suburbs but the sprawl in US cities approach the physical limits of ugliness.

The point is well taken but the idea that thousands of acres of Toronto's environs don't look precisely like this is ridiculous.

And I would not choose Atlanta as a city indicative of general trends int he US. Its historical and geographic development makes it the freak of the East Coast. You might as well claim all Canadian cities resemble Halifax.

 

[salsa]

The point is well taken but the idea that thousands of acres of Toronto's environs don't look precisely like this is ridiculous.

And I would not choose Atlanta as a city indicative of general trends int he US. Its historical and geographic development makes it the freak of the East Coast. You might as well claim all Canadian cities resemble Halifax.

The cities I chose were Atlanta, L.A, Houston, Detroit, San Francisco, Phoenix, Chicago, Dallas. There are countless other cities that look just like that. I don't envy the Toronto suburbs but I don't think they are as bad because:
- Less freeways
- Many high density nodes and high-rise buildings outside the downtown
- Sidewalks on both sides of arterial roads (some US cities have none)
- Better public transit, higher ridership
- Traffic lights don't hang from wires across intersections
- No white flight like in US
- Better pedestrian routes in subdivisions
- Greenbelt + Places to Grow, ambitious transit plan (big move)

 

[Ladies Mile]

The cities I chose were Atlanta, L.A, Houston, Detroit, San Francisco, Phoenix, Chicago, Dallas. There are countless other cities that look just like that. I don't envy the Toronto suburbs but I don't think they are as bad because:
- Less freeways
- Many high density nodes and high-rise buildings outside the downtown
- Sidewalks on both sides of arterial roads (some US cities have none)
- Better public transit, higher ridership
- Traffic lights don't hang from wires across intersections
- No white flight like in US
- Better pedestrian routes in subdivisions
- Greenbelt + Places to Grow, ambitious transit plan (big move)

Again, you are assuming the worst examples are the only examples.

There are places in the US where suburban development sees far stricter codes and guidelines than does Toronto. And vast swathes of Brampton, etc., look every bit as horrid, car-dependent and chintzy as the worst US examples.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Again, you are assuming the worst examples are the only examples.

There are places in the US where suburban development sees far stricter codes and guidelines than does Toronto. And vast swathes of Brampton, etc., look every bit as horrid, car-dependent and chintzy as the worst US examples.

Another reason not to like Brampton. Brampton does not even allow ice cream trucks. From this link:

Selling ice cream or any other products from the road contravenes Traffic By-Law 93-93 – and also presents an unsafe situation for children. Enforcement officers patrol and will lay charges against the owners of these vehicles for contravening the bylaw.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Again, you are assuming the worst examples are the only examples.

There are places in the US where suburban development sees far stricter codes and guidelines than does Toronto. And vast swathes of Brampton, etc., look every bit as horrid, car-dependent and chintzy as the worst US examples.

Tell me about it. Comparing the outer-GTA to American suburbs is like having a tallest midget contest.

"Yeah, the intersection of Weston and Major McKenzie is so much more pleasant than this intersection in outer Houston because we don't have traffic lights that hang on wires."

 

[Ladies Mile]

Tell me about it. Comparing the outer-GTA to American suburbs is like having a tallest midget contest.

"Yeah, the intersection of Weston and Major McKenzie is so much more pleasant than this intersection in outer Houston because we don't have traffic lights that hang on wires."

I would say that the older American suburbs are far superior to their Toronto counterparts at least in terms of architecture. There is no outlying area of the GTA that has Oak Park's Frank Lloyd Wright heritage or the shingle style houses of suburban Boston. Even New York's Bronxville and Bedford Hills make Oakville look dumpy, trashy and off-the-shelf.

Now the people living in those communities are a different story...

 

[doady]

Tell me about it. Comparing the outer-GTA to American suburbs is like having a tallest midget contest.

The whole point of this thread is to compare outer GTA to US American suburbs. If you don't like that, do us a favour and don't click on the thread instead of making useless posts.

 

[Hipster Duck]

The whole point of this thread is to compare outer GTA to US American suburbs. If you don't like that, do us a favour and don't click on the thread instead of making useless posts.

That's funny, because the original poster compares outer Toronto to outer London.