Toronto Urban Sprawl Compared to Other Cities

[TOareaFan]

That's remarkable.. Even our deserts are densely populated!

I know you are joking there but, actually, that is a farely typical crowd at the badlands....it really does draw fair number of visitors.

 

[Long Island Mike]

What is New York's equivalent of Oakville,ON (20 miles W of Manhattan)?

I've always wondered where New York's "Oakville" is? Not so much as distance, but housing stock suburbia. There's quite a bit Eastward through Long Island, New Jersey seems to be too built up/dense, and Norward into Westchester seems to be too rural.

KDP: Oakville is about 20 miles W of Downtown Toronto...New York's outer city/suburban areas tend to be older then Toronto's suburbs and to get a reasonable equivalent in density you need to go at least 30 miles from Manhattan: Eastern Nassau County on Long Island; In New Jersey
there are cities like Newark (10 miles W of Manhattan) and Paterson being among the largest NJ cities and suburbs are away W or S (in Newark's case) or N and W (Paterson) being examples...Upper Westchester County N of White Plains would be an equivalent density to Oakville also...

LI MIKE

 

[Ladies Mile]

KDP: Oakville is about 20 miles W of Downtown Toronto...New York's outer city/suburban areas tend to be older then Toronto's suburbs and to get a reasonable equivalent in density you need to go at least 30 miles from Manhattan: Eastern Nassau County on Long Island; In New Jersey
there are cities like Newark (10 miles W of Manhattan) and Paterson being among the largest NJ cities and suburbs are away W or S (in Newark's case) or N and W (Paterson) being examples...Upper Westchester County N of White Plains would be an equivalent density to Oakville also...

LI MIKE

I was just about to log in and say White Plains is NYC's equivalent of Oakville, at least in terms of general appearance and income bracket.

New York suburbs tend to be soulless culture-free zones with no diversity or architectural interest to speak of, so there's that to consider.

 

[Ladies Mile]

That said, I don't know that Atlanta is any more indicative of American sprawl than, say, Pittsburgh or Denver or Philadelphia; or, conversely, that Toronto's suburbs aren't just as bland beyond their ethnic component and proximity to the central city.

 

[W. K. Lis]

KDP: Oakville is about 20 miles W of Downtown Toronto...New York's outer city/suburban areas tend to be older then Toronto's suburbs and to get a reasonable equivalent in density you need to go at least 30 miles from Manhattan: Eastern Nassau County on Long Island; In New Jersey
there are cities like Newark (10 miles W of Manhattan) and Paterson being among the largest NJ cities and suburbs are away W or S (in Newark's case) or N and W (Paterson) being examples...Upper Westchester County N of White Plains would be an equivalent density to Oakville also...

LI MIKE

Those New Jersey cities could have been annexed into New York City, if they weren't in another state, long ago.

 

[Electrify]

Perhaps Levittown would be a good example of New York's Oakville? Despite being the same vintage as Don Mills (which is known as 'Canada's Levittown'), Levittown is far more single used and sprawled out than almost anything within the 416. Last time I was in New York I went out to that suburb, just to say that I've been there.

 

[Ladies Mile]

Perhaps Levittown would be a good example of New York's Oakville? Despite being the same vintage as Don Mills (which is known as 'Canada's Levittown'), Levittown is far more single used and sprawled out than almost anything within the 416. Last time I was in New York I went out to that suburb, just to say that I've been there.

Oakville is Oxford, UK, compared with Levittown.

You actually visited just to say you'd been?

 

[doady]

There are generally two general types of srpawl in the US: the extreme low density rustbelt/snowbelt style of sprawl and the high density sunbelt style.

Atlanta's sprawl is typical of sprawl in the snowbelt/rustbelt of the US (even though it is located in the south). Even though it is surrounded by the Rustbelt, Toronto's sprawl is more similar to that of the Sunbelt, but it's also the "North American Moscow" (literally thousands of apartment buildings).

Urban sprawl in Canada in general is mostly the Sunbelt style. The rustbelt/snowbelt style is mostly only found in the Atlantic provinces.

One major difference with Canadian suburbs is that they have much higher rates of transit use. Look at the frequent bus service in outer 416, or even Mississauga. That level of transit service is unthinkable in suburban US.

 

[Long Island Mike]

Comparing Oakville to New York City's Suburbs and cities...

I was just about to log in and say White Plains is NYC's equivalent of Oakville, at least in terms of general appearance and income bracket.

New York suburbs tend to be soulless culture-free zones with no diversity or architectural interest to speak of, so there's that to consider.

LM: What makes White Plains interesting is that it has become a decent-sized city in its own right with a substantial Downtown area that is well
served by Metro-North's Harlem line and Westchester County's Bee-Line Bus system...

I have found that older established suburban areas have much more character then newer Sprawl areas built since the early 1980s being good
examples...From what I have seen older suburbs that are close in to cities like New York are much better than the most bland examples such
as Chicago's outer suburban ring and Denver,Colorado's outer suburbs (primarily E in the "grasslands") which is just car-dependent sprawl...

WKL: I agree with you about New Jersey's close-in cities - For example Hudson County's largest cities (Bayonne,Jersey City,Hoboken,Union City)
have more in common with Manhattan across the Hudson River then much of Staten Island actually does...HC could almost be a sixth NYC Borough...

E: I am familiar with Levittown being that I have relatives that lived there for many years and it always amazes me when you see pictures from
the late 40s and 50s era when it was new compared to today to see changes like the foliage...Much of what was eastern Nassau County's now
established suburbs was farmland until after WW2 and it was built on what was known as the "Hempstead Plains"...

Doady: The Rustbelt/Snowbelt sprawl of the past 30-35 or so years is definitely different then what was built from the mid 70s on back before...
The newer areas are much more of car-dependent sprawl then the older areas...For example Nassau County's NICE Bus service is much more
heavily used then Suffolk County Transit is...but I agree that Canada has more transit use then comparable US suburban areas do...

LI MIKE

 

[Memph]

Regarding the comparison between London and Toronto, the built density of the outer fringes are relatively similar. I would say that London has more smaller homes in the 1000-2000sf range though (as opposed to 2000-4000sf), and maybe a bit narrower streets and a bit smaller from setbacks. However, while the built densities of the outer fringe are similar, the inner core of London is denser than Toronto's, and London's middle ring is much denser than Toronto's. Toronto's middle ring does have some pretty dense highrise areas, but most of the land area is consumed by single family homes that are less dense than on the fringe. Meanwhile, London's middle ring is mostly housing similar to the pre-WWII housing of Old Toronto.

Additionally, London seems to have considerably less space dedicated towards employment than Toronto with its light industrial parks and big box shopping centres.

As for Atlanta, it is very sprawly, but like many other US cities, the development densities are increasing. There seems to be more infill subdivisions with densities more like Toronto's in Atlanta than in the past, ex: http://goo.gl/maps/o8fTH
And the new developments on the fringes and beyond, while still lower density than in Toronto, are denser than they used to be: http://goo.gl/maps/jQ8HG
Middeljohn's picture of Atlanta shows this too, the older homes are on larger lots than the newer ones.

A lot of the development in New York's suburbs was low density, and at this point the outer fringe is probably approaching the upper limit of tolerable commute distances to more close in suburbs (as for Manhattan, some can get you there in 1.5 hours by commuter train...) so much of New York's growth seems to be more inward now. Probably Atlanta will be heading in a similar direction since its suburbs cover almost as much area as New York's now, despite a much smaller population.

 

[Hipster Duck]

There are generally two general types of srpawl in the US: the extreme low density rustbelt/snowbelt style of sprawl and the high density sunbelt style.

Atlanta's sprawl is typical of sprawl in the snowbelt/rustbelt of the US (even though it is located in the south). Even though it is surrounded by the Rustbelt, Toronto's sprawl is more similar to that of the Sunbelt, but it's also the "North American Moscow" (literally thousands of apartment buildings).

Urban sprawl in Canada in general is mostly the Sunbelt style. The rustbelt/snowbelt style is mostly only found in the Atlantic provinces.

Yes, I agree. I would say that Rustbelt/Snowbelt exurbia is found with some regularity in 2 other places in Canada: Quebec and, interestingly, Victoria BC. The latter is interesting because it has some of the highest home prices in Canada and is growing quite rapidly, and we usually associate Snowbelt/Rustbelt sprawl with low growth, stagnant economies and low land values (that's why Atlantic Canada and Upstate NY have similar suburban forms). However, I think another major reason for exurbia is the lack of incorporation in a lot of the Eastern US and around Victoria. If most of your outer suburban areas are part of incorporated municipalities, as is the case in a lot of California, Arizona and most of the rapidly growing Canadian metros, you are obliged to provide a certain level of services and amenities that only a certain density can support.

One major difference with Canadian suburbs is that they have much higher rates of transit use. Look at the frequent bus service in outer 416, or even Mississauga. That level of transit service is unthinkable in suburban US.

Apart from Canadian cultural differences and gas prices, there is something to be said, again, for incorporation and, even moreso, for the size of a suburban municipality. The suburbs of Toronto and Vancouver are not only bonafide incorporated cities, but also the largest suburban municipalities on the continent (Mississauga is probably one of the 20 largest municipalities in North America, of any kind). They have the resources and the manpower to plan transit and direct growth to a level that only large central cities normally can, and are so jurisdictionally large that they have a broad segment of the population represented within their boundaries.

 

[diminutive]

Apart from Canadian cultural differences and gas prices, there is something to be said, again, for incorporation and, even moreso, for the size of a suburban municipality. The suburbs of Toronto and Vancouver are not only bonafide incorporated cities, but also the largest suburban municipalities on the continent (Mississauga is probably one of the 20 largest municipalities in North America, of any kind). They have the resources and the manpower to plan transit and direct growth to a level that only large central cities normally can, and are so jurisdictionally large that they have a broad segment of the population represented within their boundaries.

Yes, it would be difficult to imagine the Mayor of Brampton or Vaughan opposing transit investment because it might attract "those people," yet this just happened in Atlanta with the proposed relocation of the Atlanta Braves.

http://m.ajc.com/weblogs/jay-bookman/2013/nov/12/cobb-gop-chairman-concerned-about-those-people-com/

 

[doady]

Long Island Mike mentioned the NICE system, that's another good example. It used to be Long Island Bus, but Nassau County kept the annual subsidy frozen for many years at around $9 million. Considering inflation, that's decreasing funding for its transit system year after year, and eventually it became NICE and privatized (similar to YRT). $9 million, compare that to the $50+ million Mississauga spends each year to subsidize its transit operations. Nassau County is twice the size of Mississauga but it's transit system is half the size of Mississauga's. Nassau is a lot older and probably a lot more urban than Mississauga too. So it's just politics, and the NYC urban area is by far the most transit-dependent in the US, so imagine the rest of the US.

That said, Mississauga is not devoid of that sort of snobbery either. Look at the lack of service along Mississauga Rd. Elsewhere in GTA, you can see Georgetown still has no local transit service either. Even in Toronto, there were all those protests against Mississauga Transit buses. To this day, MT still diverts route 76 off of Burnhamthorpe in Etobicoke to appease the NIMBYs there (the 76 replaced the 86 [later renamed 206], which was rerouted because of the protests).

 

[salsa]

I've always wondered why Toronto's inner suburbs have so many high rise buildings. I haven't seen that in any other city in North America.

 

[middeljohn]

I've always wondered why Toronto's inner suburbs have so many high rise buildings. I haven't seen that in any other city in North America.

Canadian cities in general have much more highrises per capita than American cities. Toronto is the king of this trend, but not the exception. It comes down to highway miles per capita is my opinion. It would he interesting to make a scatterplot of highway miles per capita and highrises per capita. I might just do it!

I'll try to find the link but I remember reading an article a few months ago stating that about 20% of Canadians live in commieblocks!