Union Station Revitalization | ?m | ?s | City of Toronto | NORR

Woodbridge_Heights

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York Concourse has similar stairs with 180 switchbacks. How would you redo the stairs and not taking up more square footage?

Does having stairways that switch back on themselves necessarily take up less space than a straight staircase? Provided of course you have sufficient horizontal space to run the staircase straight, which in the case of Union we do.
 

interchange42

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Well there's an inherent flaw with the bidding process. The lowest bid isn't always the best for giving the contract to. The city will put out an RFP and companies can come in with a low bid (some with little to no experience in the field the project is for, or might severely underestimate cost/scope of the project) and win the contract. Then guess what...fast forward a few years and the project is over budget and behind schedule.
It's not companies with little to no experience winning this bids. Carillion and Bondfield both had to show first that they had the capability of doing the work: you don't qualify to bid unless you can show that. Once they qualified, however, they low-balled the bids. If the companies are large enough, they can sometimes get through a low-balled bid, but if they do it too often they are in trouble. They also look for ways to charge more for unforeseen circumstances they encounter, and typically go after the project owner when change orders are made: sometimes they can dig their way out of their economic pit that way.

In any case, poor company policies put both Carillion and Bondfield on the ropes. We'd avoid a lot of this if we were required to choose the second lowest qualified bidder. That way, companies are encouraged to bid realistically, not ridiculously.

42
 

DSC

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Well there's an inherent flaw with the bidding process. The lowest bid isn't always the best for giving the contract to. The city will put out an RFP and companies can come in with a low bid (some with little to no experience in the field the project is for, or might severely underestimate cost/scope of the project) and win the contract. Then guess what...fast forward a few years and the project is over budget and behind schedule.
You may well be right (and this has been discussed here many times) but the fact is that the City is legally obligated to select the lowest compliant bidder so there is no point people here whining about City staff's incompetence when they do this and something goes wrong.
 

penlasdle

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You may well be right (and this has been discussed here many times) but the fact is that the City is legally obligated to select the lowest compliant bidder so there is no point people here whining about City staff's incompetence when they do this and something goes wrong.

They should start picking the second lowest bidder

(I dunno how the tendering process works at all, I'm just kidding)
 

DatTranzitGuy

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Bonus shots not included in the story:
East of the west moat:
View attachment 183895
Busy food court we all know about by now
View attachment 183896

Future "Fresh Market" area
View attachment 183897View attachment 183898
Bay lower retail area
View attachment 183899

Bay Concourse
View attachment 183900View attachment 183901
It says on one of the news things that cover the media tour (I forget which one) it says we might get the bay concourse before the retail level below it
 

smallspy

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You may well be right (and this has been discussed here many times) but the fact is that the City is legally obligated to select the lowest compliant bidder so there is no point people here whining about City staff's incompetence when they do this and something goes wrong.

The key word in that phrase, however, is "compliant".

There have been many occasions in other City departments - such as the TTC -- where the lowest bidder did not with the tender as they were not the most compliant with the requirements of the tender.

Dan
 
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narduch

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I work in the private sector. We always pick the lowest bidder on projects.

The only time this doesn't happen is if the bidder forgot something in their Bid.

The issue with infrastructure projects is there are only a handful of companies that can actually do them.
 

raptor

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Coming to Council next week":

CC7.12
ACTION​
Ward: 10​

Carillion Canada Inc. v. City of Toronto Proposed Settlement of Outstanding Claims - Union Station Revitalization Project
I'm hopeful this will lead to the completion of the Front st promenade ceiling.
 

bobbob911

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It's not companies with little to no experience winning this bids. Carillion and Bondfield both had to show first that they had the capability of doing the work: you don't qualify to bid unless you can show that. Once they qualified, however, they low-balled the bids. If the companies are large enough, they can sometimes get through a low-balled bid, but if they do it too often they are in trouble. They also look for ways to charge more for unforeseen circumstances they encounter, and typically go after the project owner when change orders are made: sometimes they can dig their way out of their economic pit that way.

In any case, poor company policies put both Carillion and Bondfield on the ropes. We'd avoid a lot of this if we were required to choose the second lowest qualified bidder. That way, companies are encouraged to bid realistically, not ridiculously.

42

Two problems:

1) There's no guarantee the second lowest bidder has low balled any less egregiously based on their understanding of the project. In fact, there's no statistical evidence to even suggest this is correlated in any way.

2) Often times there are only two qualified bidders. So your suggestion then really becomes to take the highest bidder :)

A better strategy may be to give the city discretion over which bidder to choose as long as the lowest bids are all within a small range. But for all I know that is actually already the case.
 

OakvilleGreg1

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Two problems:

1) There's no guarantee the second lowest bidder has low balled any less egregiously based on their understanding of the project. In fact, there's no statistical evidence to even suggest this is correlated in any way.

2) Often times there are only two qualified bidders. So your suggestion then really becomes to take the highest bidder :)

A better strategy may be to give the city discretion over which bidder to choose as long as the lowest bids are all within a small range. But for all I know that is actually already the case.
Its easy to blame the contractors, but often times the client wants to bring down the bid price by value engineering out important and necessary items.... and then they come back as change orders at higher cost and with delay. Both sides can play dumb games.
 

nfitz

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A better strategy may be to give the city discretion over which bidder to choose as long as the lowest bids are all within a small range. But for all I know that is actually already the case.
The problem with giving staff discretion, is it leads to favouritism - and worse.

The real key is making sure all the bidders who are considered for the financial aspect, are qualified. Or the scoring is realistic. Though this requires more competence from the agency doing the bid than often exists.
 

bobbob911

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I agree, contractors play the game they have to play to get the job. Same thing with politicians - big construction projects would never get approved if the upfront estimate was anything other than best best case scenario (which never materializes).

nfitz, I don't think we should be overly concerned with favoritism if it doesn't materially impact the cost of a project. Often times there exists a very good working relationship with an existing contractor, but some low ball bid comes in from an unknown entity that they are forced to take because it's minutely better. If a new contractor wants to establish business with the city, make it substantially worth the cities time and effort to vet them by a bid that fully prices in that risk.
 

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