Toronto Union Station Revitalization | ?m | ?s | City of Toronto | NORR

[Sandpit]

nor any other kind of land use. Municipalities are only allowed to regulate land uses, not prohibit them. There have been some extensive legal cases of municipalities trying to ban things like wind turbines by either prohibiting the use in the zoning by-law or placing such strict restrictions that it becomes impossible to actually operate the use (I.e. one municipality put in place a regulation that a wind turbine must be 5km from a public road, while there was not a single location in the entire municipality that met that condition). If a marijuana dispensary is legal on the provincial level, it must be permitted in the zoning by-law in some capacity. Now of course, it can be very limited in its potential locations.. but must have some sort of ability to operate.

It's bad politics to do it so close to an election.

 

[TOareaFan]

nor any other kind of land use. Municipalities are only allowed to regulate land uses, not prohibit them. There have been some extensive legal cases of municipalities trying to ban things like wind turbines by either prohibiting the use in the zoning by-law or placing such strict restrictions that it becomes impossible to actually operate the use (I.e. one municipality put in place a regulation that a wind turbine must be 5km from a public road, while there was not a single location in the entire municipality that met that condition). If a marijuana dispensary is legal on the provincial level, it must be permitted in the zoning by-law in some capacity. Now of course, it can be very limited in its potential locations.. but must have some sort of ability to operate.

I'll go you one further.....in DT Brampton there was a proposal a long time ago to turn the site of the Rose Theatre from its then current use (a surface parking lot) into a multi-level retail mall anchored by a movie theatre.......the chain that had signed a letter of intent to lease was an American chain looking at their first Canadian location (if memory serves me right, it was these guys http://www.yourneighborhoodtheatre.com/ ). They were, it seems, very worried that they would face massive competition from potential theatres around the city....the council of the day was desparate for something to happen downtown in terms of private investment (not much changes) so they passed site specific bylaws on each mall forbidding them opening movie theatres. I think it was the shortest OMB hearing in the history of the town and made Brampton a bit of a joke in the retail world.........suffice it to say, the theatre company never signed their lease....the mall never went ahead and several years later the proposal for the new Rose Theatre came forward.

 

[rbt]

Stopped by, for curiosity, the new Italian joint this morning as I got off my trains....they had a tray of lovely pre-made sausage frittata sandwiches...... bought one for a treat.......it was wonderful......but, guess what, that sandwich (which is just, really, a fancier better quality sausage mcmuffin) with a medium coffee came in at a pre-tip price of $9.40)

As I mentioned, their struggle is going to be the margin to pay rent. It's not easy to make $1.50 in food fancy enough to sell for $7 and get repeat customers.

McDonalds does it by dropping the food costs for effectively the same thing to something closer to 45 cents and selling a pile of them for $2.80.

About $5 of your bill (I assume $9.40 was after taxes) will be for the location (lease, taxes, utilities, etc.).

 

[TOareaFan]

As I mentioned, their struggle is going to be the margin to pay rent.

yeah...I did reference your comment

and, as you note, the rents will preclude them from competing with price

Point is....with likely no "sit down" customers to speak of during the morning commute they are clearly trying to find a way to extend the hours that they are generating any revenue to help meet their rent.....I suspect they will fail in this and revert to being a lunch and dinner only type place.....and dealing with even fewer hours their prices will go up even more and, well, they may discover that there is an upper limit to what you can charge in a pasta joint in a train station in Toronto and, well, then it gets tough.

I think you and I are largely agreeing....the nature of the location/pre-dominant customer base is gonna skew the tenancies here to mass marketed, quick serve, high margin food....and if, say, 60% of the space (a low estimate IMO) is given over to that sort of tenant there is going to be massive competition for customers......if the market works efficiently, this should drive down rents in the long run.

 

[jdoe1369]

For anyone keeping track, Union Chicken's hoarding was down this morning.

Though it doesn't look as "ready for primetime" as Amano did when its hoarding came down. Still tape on the windows, missing glass, etc.

 

[crs1026]

Other than the problem of removing all the food preparation and storage hardware once the original owner has folded - is there anything about this space that precludes it being used for other services? Dentists, lawyers, financial advisors, shoe repair, dry cleaner, florist, whatever? I certainly know enough people who would love to tack these kinds of errands onto their commuting day - the real estate, while not cheap, is likely no more expensive than one would lease in PATH territory. It is not so far to walk that people in those big towers wouldn't mind the exercise. And, there are condos quite close by who might be a market also. Over time, one might expect to see less food but more variety in businesses there.

- Paul

 

[TOareaFan]

Other than the problem of removing all the food preparation and storage hardware once the original owner has folded - is there anything about this space that precludes it being used for other services? Dentists, lawyers, financial advisors, shoe repair, dry cleaner, florist, whatever? I certainly know enough people who would love to tack these kinds of errands onto their commuting day - the real estate, while not cheap, is likely no more expensive than one would lease in PATH territory. It is not so far to walk that people in those big towers wouldn't mind the exercise. And, there are condos quite close by who might be a market also. Over time, one might expect to see less food but more variety in businesses there.

- Paul

Converting from food to non food is expensive but not prohibitive.......I guess the question becomes, if there was an identifiable demand for those businesses to locate in this area....why are none of the early spots being taken up by those businesses? Look at the early tenants who have either opened or are on the "opening soon" list.....most are food related businesses. Even the convenience store has a higher than normal percentage of its floor space given over to grab and go food offerings.

Most failed restaurants become restaurants again because the landlord can offer the next tenant a deal of fixtures and fittings (as long as they are in good condition and work for their type of food prep/service) and lower the cost of opening.

 

[Sandpit]

if you put one of the new cannabis outlets near the platform doors to the Richmond Hill train you could solve the problem of their council refusing to allow a store there (although, the province says no municipality actually can refuse the stores).

It's centrally located, so opening one here means you don't have to open as many elsewhere. It's not close to an elementary or high school, and there are relatively few families with small children in the area (and the ones that are there tend to be the liberal types).

It's actually perfect.

 

[Richard White]

It wouldn't occur to me to take a street car from Union to harbour front. Its a five minute walk.

5 minutes when the weather is good and there are no events at the ACC. You could walk to Harbourfront but in some cases it is easier to take a streetcar. When there is an event at the ACC like a Stanley cup final game you cannot walk around the crowds.

 

[TOareaFan]

5 minutes when the weather is good and there are no events at the ACC. You could walk to Harbourfront but in some cases it is easier to take a streetcar. When there is an event at the ACC like a Stanley cup final game you cannot walk around the crowds.

I know what you mean......but has there ever been a Stanley Cup Final game at the ACC?

 

[Richard White]

I know what you mean......but has there ever been a Stanley Cup Final game at the ACC?

Not unless the league folds or all the other stadiums burn down.

 

[Sandpit]

Not unless the league folds or all the other stadiums burn down.

Well, maybe it'll get cold in hell...

 

[interchange42]

Converting from food to non food is expensive but not prohibitive.......I guess the question becomes, if there was an identifiable demand for those businesses to locate in this area....why are none of the early spots being taken up by those businesses? Look at the early tenants who have either opened or are on the "opening soon" list.....most are food related businesses. Even the convenience store has a higher than normal percentage of its floor space given over to grab and go food offerings.

Most failed restaurants become restaurants again because the landlord can offer the next tenant a deal of fixtures and fittings (as long as they are in good condition and work for their type of food prep/service) and lower the cost of opening.

The restaurants at Union are not popping up just because their proprietors were the ones who leased the space; all of Union's retail is being "curated" by a company looking to put together a destination… so it's more unlikely than normal that a dentist might pop up in one of these spaces if one of the restaurants goes under: Osmington and Beauleigh are likely going to after another retailer from the same category to bolster the assortment that they feel will help fill out the mall's pull.

Here's Beauleigh's statement about Union:

As the exclusive retail consulting and leasing team on Union Station, Beauleigh conceptualized the vision, created the blueprint and is now executing that retail vision for the revitalization of this iconic and historical landmark. The goal is to curate a unique destination with the best retail, service and restaurant operators in the city. It is a deliberate move away from the cookie cutter chains to create a sense of place for local residents, office workers, tourists, event goers, the ACC crowd and of course the 250,000 commuters who pass through the station daily. Ultimately to put a stamp on the city.

42

 

[MetroMan]

Things are really starting to come together. What a beautiful station this will be once completed.

 

[TOareaFan]

The restaurants at Union are not popping up just because their proprietors were the ones who leased the space; all of Union's retail is being "curated" by a company looking to put together a destinatiion

That is the sort of language that gets used all the time in real estate.....particularly in retail. Remember when the Woodbine Centre was curated to be a destination high-fashion mall.

Sure they want the best of retail, service and food.......and it is all part of their master curation plan that virtually all of their current (and named coming soon) tenancies are in the food category.