Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[sixrings]

I took the train for fun on Saturday with my wife and maybe a half dozen other people. It was very nice. But can someone explain to me why a 500 million dollar piece of infrastructure needs 19-27$ tickets to make it run properly. Based on that amount the new Scarborough Subway tickets should be about $100 each way and the Gardiner toll about $20. In all seriousness it seems like a pretty cheap piece of transit. Why does it need to cost so much?

 

[christiesplits]

The biggest problem at the moment, that Metrolinx probably want to make a priority, is tweaking the branding.
"UP Express" with a subheading at bottom of "To Airport" and "To Downtown" depending on where the signage is
At least for the first year or two.

I agree, so much of UP's marketing - and Metrolinx more generally - seem to have been designed by committee. They seem more concerned with branding than providing seamless, universally understood symbols and language.

Still can't get over the hideous colour scheme of this thing.

I'm not sure if it's hideous, just uninspiring. Toronto does grey. It's what we do well.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

I took the train for fun on Saturday with my wife and maybe a half dozen other people. It was very nice. But can someone explain to me why a 500 million dollar piece of infrastructure needs 19-27$ tickets to make it run properly. Based on that amount the new Scarborough Subway tickets should be about $100 each way and the Gardiner toll about $20. In all seriousness it seems like a pretty cheap piece of transit. Why does it need to cost so much?

I really am having a hard time understanding the amount of people who've gotten weird about the pricing. You don't price a product based on anything except maximizing your revenue. UPX is not a civic infrastructure transit piece. It's a premium transportation method from Pearson to Union. You're not pricing it to maximize rides, you're pricing it to maximize revenue. If the pricing is too high to attract riders, it'll come down.

Having said that, the pricing seems to be spot-on. It's very cheap compared to a taxi/limo and and at Union you connect to the PATH. If you're at a PATH-connected hotel, or going straight to a CBD office, it's faster, more convenient, easy to clean off your e-mails while getting to the office, and you get kudos from Finance when you submit your expenses.

If you're a tourist going to the SkyDome or ACC for an event, you're again connected. If you're a tourist going to Union to catch a train, again, it's cheap compared to a taxi ride. If you're a family of 5 staying at the Royal York or Delta with plans to go to Ripley's or a concert, it's easier, as cheap, and much cooler for the kids than a taxi.

So, here's my question: what do you think the fare should be? Not what would be 'fair', but rather what do you think the target audience would perceive as good value for the product? Full disclosure: I think the fare is, if anything, too cheap. I'd have paid an extra $10. But I'm no longer in the 'value traveler' demographic, I know.

 

[Hairball]

Just a quick question, since UPX is operating under the honour system aka POP. I thought there might have been fare gates since the line has its own platforms and all at Union.

Do we have to scan our printed tickets before boarding?

I had the complimentary tickets just on my phone, no one checked anything, nor were there signs to prescan tickets. I guess just show them to the transit cops on board if they ask?

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

I really am having a hard time understanding the amount of people who've gotten weird about the pricing. You don't price a product based on anything except maximizing your revenue. UPX is not a civic infrastructure transit piece. It's a premium transportation method from Pearson to Union. You're not pricing it to maximize rides, you're pricing it to maximize revenue. If the pricing is too high to attract riders, it'll come down.

Having said that, the pricing seems to be spot-on. It's very cheap compared to a taxi/limo and and at Union you connect to the PATH. If you're at a PATH-connected hotel, or going straight to a CBD office, it's faster, more convenient, easy to clean off your e-mails while getting to the office, and you get kudos from Finance when you submit your expenses.

If you're a tourist going to the SkyDome or ACC for an event, you're again connected. If you're a tourist going to Union to catch a train, again, it's cheap compared to a taxi ride. If you're a family of 5 staying at the Royal York or Delta with plans to go to Ripley's or a concert, it's easier, as cheap, and much cooler for the kids than a taxi.

So, here's my question: what do you think the fare should be? Not what would be 'fair', but rather what do you think the target audience would perceive as good value for the product? Full disclosure: I think the fare is, if anything, too cheap. I'd have paid an extra $10. But I'm no longer in the 'value traveler' demographic, I know.

I really don't get the griping about fares either. People simultaneous complain that it cost too much to set up AND that the fares are too expensive! Do you want Metrolinx to attempt to recoup some of those costs or not? $19 is a bargain compared to existing options.

 

[UD2]

I have planned three trips later this year, and all of them involved the UPX. The cost is perfect (same if not less than taxi from downtown for 2 ppl), is faster, and more dependable.

The UPX allows me to get off work downtown at 5:30, and take a flight at 7:30 from Pearson. For two people with a presto card that is $38, a cab ride will cost at least $55 + tips. Also with a cab, my flight will need to be closer to 9PM as it will take me at least 1:30 to get to Pearson.

So for me, a UPX trip cost $20 less for two people and saves me 1 hour on the road.

And yes, if you live in Toronto, you should nvr be looking at the $27.50 fare. You should get a presto card.

people have to understand that we don't build rapid transit so they can use it to bring their kids to Orlando once every 5 years. This is for the daily travelers who travels on business，or visitors who are unfamiliar with Toronto and wants a fast, safe and dependable way of getting downtown. The business travelers are usually getting reimbursed for the tickets and the visitors will pay the premium for the perceived safety and security. Or if you are someone like me who needs to get to the airport by 6:15 after work, I would happily pay a sizable premium to make this happen (let along at $20 less, which is the current case).

 

[rdaner]

Looking forward to riding UPX later in the week! I am also curious if anyone jumped on it during this mornings snafu with the regular subway service. Though the price is more it is something that I would gladly pay to actually get where I need to be when the subway is down. At least an alternative is now available and it beats paying cab fare.

 

[sixrings]

I wasnt actually gripping about the fares. In fact things like Green P parking in my opinion should increase to what everyone else is charging. Why should the government give something away for free? My question was more in regard to the fact that I believe I had read earlier that without such pricing the system would fail to break even. That or there would need to be much more people using it at a reduced fare. Anyways im not writing this well but I was under the impression that some believed at this price it would be a failure and after some time it may add stops and be merged into other transit like GO smart track or TTC. I really liked the service but I would much rather Smart track use this line then trying to go down Eglinton. Theres way too many pages to re read everything on this thread so Im hoping this rings a bell to someone else.

 

[Napoleon]

Lastly, I timed it from my door to Pearson and it was 55 mins. (That included approx. 5 mins wasted lining up the train) When I go Line 1 -> Line 2 -> Bus #192 I do my door to Pearson in 1h05 or 10. I don't have a Metro Pass so with a Presto it would cost me $22 to use vs $3 for a savings of approx. 10-20mins and I live a few stops from Union. I'm not sure if the average Torontonian will use this, but then people spend way more money on frivolous stuff than I do so maybe they will? I think it'll be mostly tourists who don't know any better and think their options are UPX or cab, and business men who just need to get back and forth from Union to Pearson.

Good trip report. I mean I think this is why I complain about the pricing. Living near Wellesley station, a short walk from the subway, I'll spend $22 to save all of 5-10 minutes over the TTC. I've made it door to door in under an hour with the TTC and the 192 bus. I'm not exactly far from Union, and if I were too much further, I would actually take longer with the UPX.

Now, I get that they want to maximize revenue; however, this is paid for with my provincial tax dollars...so I'd much rather have a fairly priced service that more people use than a "premium" product just catering to the business set. I'm just hoping they're responsive once they figure out where they are on the price-demand curve.

 

[gabe]

So, here's my question: what do you think the fare should be? Not what would be 'fair', but rather what do you think the target audience would perceive as good value for the product? Full disclosure: I think the fare is, if anything, too cheap. I'd have paid an extra $10. But I'm no longer in the 'value traveler' demographic, I know.

You think it's too cheap? I have taken rapid transit all over North America. I have never in my life paid anything near $30 for such a short train ride.. I traveled on Amtrack one way from Detroit all the way to Chicago for nearly that price.

Hopefully in time they will bring out better deals for local's and families.

 

[Napoleon]

And yes, if you live in Toronto, you should nvr be looking at the $27.50 fare. You should get a presto card.

Except Presto works in less than half the subway stations, 6 streetcars spread over 2 lines, and no buses. Oh, and if you take the TTC often enough to have a monthly pass, you can't use Presto either. So not to sound snarky, but a Presto card in Toronto is not that compelling to most. I've had one for months now and only managed to use it twice...it's stupid little tokens for me most of the time.

 

[sixrings]

Not that it is the same but the online fare to Stratford is $25. How much will GO be to Kitchener? I understand that it would be nice to have this service for business travelers. But I think its more important we get transit right for the people in the city first. It is hard to believe if one has to do business in Toronto that they will refuse to simply because their is no direct airport rail link. I took a business trip to Bangalore and it was a hour and half car ride into the city. Obviously we should strive to be better than that but my point is that the company still wants to do business in Bangalore because it simply makes money and they dont care about the business traveler.

 

[ksun]

I have planned three trips later this year, and all of them involved the UPX. The cost is perfect (same if not less than taxi from downtown for 2 ppl), is faster, and more dependable.

The UPX allows me to get off work downtown at 5:30, and take a flight at 7:30 from Pearson. For two people with a presto card that is $38, a cab ride will cost at least $55 + tips. Also with a cab, my flight will need to be closer to 9PM as it will take me at least 1:30 to get to Pearson.

So for me, a UPX trip cost $20 less for two people and saves me 1 hour on the road.

And yes, if you live in Toronto, you should nvr be looking at the $27.50 fare. You should get a presto card.

people have to understand that we don't build rapid transit so they can use it to bring their kids to Orlando once every 5 years. This is for the daily travelers who travels on business，or visitors who are unfamiliar with Toronto and wants a fast, safe and dependable way of getting downtown. The business travelers are usually getting reimbursed for the tickets and the visitors will pay the premium for the perceived safety and security. Or if you are someone like me who needs to get to the airport by 6:15 after work, I would happily pay a sizable premium to make this happen (let along at $20 less, which is the current case).

if you work right by Union Station, that is perfect.

I work at Yonge/Dundas. Normally if I have an evening flight after work, I normally take the TTC, which will take 65-70 minutes to Pearson, including the subway/bus waiting time. but we all know TTC service is unpredictable/annoying/frustrating and if something happens and my window is tight, I am screwed (happened once - missed the flight because TTC had multiple delays at various stations).

If I take UPx, I will take the subway to union station (or walk for 20 minutes), arriving at the UPx terminal, and wait for 7-8 minutes on average to get on the train. In total it will take 50-55 minutes. So really I am spending $19 to save 15 minutes.

Essentially strictly time wise, it doesn't really save that much time. But the attractiveness for me is that I will avoid the messy experience of squeezing myself into rush hour subways, enduring all the stops between Yonge and Kipling (where each stop can have problems), and agony of waiting for that 192 and all its red lights; instead I could simply lug my way to Front/York, board the comfortable train, knowing for sure I will be at the YYZ terminal at a certain time, which largely reduces the most unpleasant part of a trip - going to the airport.

I don't call $19 a "bargain", but it really depends on how much you want to spend to have a more pleasant (and predictable) trip to the airport.

 

[ksun]

Except Presto works in less than half the subway stations, 6 streetcars spread over 2 lines, and no buses. Oh, and if you take the TTC often enough to have a monthly pass, you can't use Presto either. So not to sound snarky, but a Presto card in Toronto is not that compelling to most. I've had one for months now and only managed to use it twice...it's stupid little tokens for me most of the time.

I bought a presto too a couple of months ago and never had the chance to use it.
Just don't understand why it takes so long to adopt a simple fare card system wide, something even third world countries are capable of doing. So for me, it is the stupid little tokens most of the time too.

 

[mdrejhon]

I bought a presto too a couple of months ago and never had the chance to use it.
Just don't understand why it takes so long to adopt a simple fare card system wide, something even third world countries are capable of doing. So for me, it is the stupid little tokens most of the time too.

Presto is a big success for me. The entire Hamilton and Mississauga bus system, as well as the entire GO train system, uses Presto. I tapped three times to travel from Hamilton to GO train (then VIA/Porter) then onto Ottawa's OC Transpo. Worked beautifully as I started being a user after the majority of the glitches were ironed out on those.

The problem is TTC. I hate carrying the tokens, too.