Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[SlickFranky]

A diesel locomotive has a life span of more than 30 years. They can be re-deployed to other corridors or sold to other operators.

I could agree with that argument if they were going to be thrown out in a decade or less, but they are going to be around for quite some time.

Exactly. Lakeshore and Georgetown/Pearson will be electrified soon(ish), but other lines will still need Diesels for quite a while. When Pearson get's electrified they can just move these to another line. The real question should be: What is the cost difference between building electric and building standard then upgrading to electric? As long as they build it with future electrification in mind the difference in cost should be negligible. Who cares if they run Diesels for a few years until the upgrades are complete?

 

[EnviroTO]

Actually no, they are contracting out a new supply of Diesel trains to be manufactured in Quebec.

Says who? Metrolinx has tendered everything so far so I would be a little surprised if locomotives bought by the Ontario government would go to Quebec without them winning a tendering process. It seems just as likely that new locomotives would be built in London and I wouldn't rule out Grove City or Boise.

Buying diesel will not be a waste because there is a market for standard gauge diesel locomotives made to North American specs. The fleet of commuter rail locomotives is in North America is growing so Tier 4 commuter locomotives capable of hauling 12 car double decked trains should be easy to sell if necessary.

 

[rbt]

Buying diesel will not be a waste because there is a market for standard gauge diesel locomotives made to North American specs. The fleet of commuter rail locomotives is in North America is growing so Tier 4 commuter locomotives capable of hauling 12 car double decked trains should be easy to sell if necessary.

Electrification will only take place on routes which have and can maintain all day service. Frankly, it's better for the environment to burn a bit of diesel than string 80km of wire and supports for 3 trains per day to Peterborough.

GO will always have lots of sleepy commuter rail extensions, like Peterborough or Orillia, even on routes which are electrified and have frequent service part of the way.

I expect by the time $10B (todays dollars) is found to electrify and boost service levels adequately on the lines Metrolinx marked for REX service or 30 minute all day service; 40 years will have passed and we will be purchasing Tier 6 diesel engines available at that time for Peterborough, Orillia, London, Windsor, Sarnia, and Kingston routes which all have 3 or so trains per day per direction.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Electrification will only take place on routes which have and can maintain all day service. Frankly, it's better for the environment to burn a bit of diesel than string 80km of wire and supports for 3 trains per day to Peterborough.

GO will always have lots of sleepy commuter rail extensions, like Peterborough or Orillia, even on routes which are electrified and have frequent service part of the way.

I expect by the time $10B (todays dollars) is found to electrify and boost service levels adequately on the lines Metrolinx marked for REX service or 30 minute all day service; 40 years will have passed and we will be purchasing Tier 6 diesel engines available at that time for Peterborough, Orillia, London, Windsor, Sarnia, and Kingston routes which all have 3 or so trains per day per direction.

What? Orillia's getting Go service now?

And I'm confused, are you talking about VIA when you mention Sarnia, London, Windsor and Kingston? Because I'd sure as hell hope that those corridors all get at least some form of HSR in 40 years, and I'd be dismayed if that didn't come with electrification either.

Again, from an international level, all our Go lines should be electrified. I mean, our lowest ridership/frequency routes get 8 trains a day. Many other countries would consider that grounds for electrification, but it's somehow beyond us. And every single Go line is slated to get all day service, which will boost frequency up to at least 30 trains/day on even the lowest frequency corridors.

 

[RedRocket191]

I don't think anyone disagrees with you. The issue is "if we have a chance to improve service today should we take it or should we wait until we finish throwing up wires?"

 

[Second_in_pie]

I guess the big question I have then is how many new trains we'd have to buy. I would think that we wouldn't have to buy new trains for all-day service on all the lines, since frequencies would probably start around 1 train/hour, much lower than they have at rush hour.
So I think it'd be logical to continue with service using the current trains Go has, and then begin electrifying the lines by use. They should all get electrified, but the Lakeshore Line would be an obvious start. That leaves trains for other lines, and electrification could then start on the Milton and Georgetown lines.

So would that be possible? If they started electrification on the Lakeshore Lines within 2 years, I'm sure they could pull expansion off without buying any new trains.

 

[rbt]

What? Orillia's getting Go service now?

Orillia was mentioned in the original Barrie line extension plans. I presume there will be GO service in Oro-Medonte within 20 years; well within the lifetime of these engines.


High speed rail, particularly as defined in Europe, will not appear anywhere within Ontario in 15 years.


HSR is not going to be a precursor to a commuter type service.

 

[Second_in_pie]

High speed rail, particularly as defined in Europe, will not appear anywhere within Ontario in 15 years.


HSR is not going to be a precursor to a commuter type service.

Wait what? So you're actually talking about commuter service to Windsor, Sarnia and Kingston?! Now that's crazy.

Really, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say though. That electrification shouldn't happen? Does that count for the Lakeshore Lines as well? If you think that, then grow up. Electrification is needed.

 

[Platform 27]

Actually no, they are contracting out a new supply of Diesel trains to be manufactured in Quebec.

This is completely incorrect.

The only train order that GO has inked at the moment is one for 20 more MP40s that are currently being built by MotivePower in Boise, Idaho. These are scheduled to arrive starting in May of next year, and will take the total fleet size up to the largest it's ever been by a considerable margin, although the plan is to keep gradually decommissioning the old F59s. In any event, because most service improvements in the next 5 years will be during off-peak hours, engines that today are being used only for rush-hour runs will simply get used more. As such, this order will meet medium-term needs quite happily.

At the time this last order was announced, GO made noises about working with MotivePower to get the wheels turning on designing a new dual-power locomotive option for a possible order some years from now. This was a purely GO-staff-driven move at the time, as GO was still separate from Metrolinx and the RTP had yet to be finished, meaning they were working purely off the MoveOntario 2020 directive that Lakeshore E. & W. were to be electrified but nothing else.

Since then, the RTP has indicated that electrification is on the table for much more of the GO network than just the Lakeshore, and the Metrolinx electrification study has begun. In its Terms of Reference it's been stated that EMU options--both FRA-compliant ones that might be comparatively pricey, and non-FRA-compliant ones that wouldn't be--are going to be actively considered.

Until that study's finished, you can be damn sure Metrolinx/GO will not be ordering any more locomotives. Not only would it be nuts, it would be entirely unnecessary, as there's no looming locomotive crunch.

What you're probably thinking of with this Quebec reference are SNC Lavalin's existing stock of older DMU railcars that they proposed using on the Pearson link. It's possible those will get refit in Quebec.

 

[Platform 27]

Orillia was mentioned in the original Barrie line extension plans. I presume there will be GO service in Oro-Medonte within 20 years; well within the lifetime of these engines.

Er, what? I can't recall Orillia ever being mentioned except longingly by various railfans. It's certainly never appeared in any GO planning document that I've read.

The tracks are gone. The alignment has in some cases been built over. And I can't see Barrie being too keen on separating their downtown from their newly-condofying lakefront with a reinstalled set of rails. Especially if this is to serve a destination with 40k people who'd need to take something like a 2.5 hour train ride to get to Toronto?

 

[kettal]

At the time this last order was announced, GO made noises about working with MotivePower to get the wheels turning on designing a new dual-power locomotive option for a possible order some years from now. This was a purely GO-staff-driven move at the time, as GO was still separate from Metrolinx and the RTP had yet to be finished, meaning they were working purely off the MoveOntario 2020 directive that Lakeshore E. & W. were to be electrified but nothing else.

Dual mode locos = super lame

 

[EnviroTO]

Dual mode locos = super lame

Why? Even the diesel locomotives used now have electric motors. NJ Transit and AMT have both ordered them.

 

[Long Island Mike]

Bombardier Dual-Mode Locomotives for NJT and AMT...

ETO and all: There is information available about the new-technology dual mode locomotives being built by Bombardier for both NJ Transit and Montreal's
AMT. It is unproven technology in North America as past dual mode locomotives used in the NYC area have operated in part on DC third rail.
The price tag is steep: US $262 Million for 26 units - NJT
US $223 Million for 20 units - AMT of the model ALP-45DP.

For more information look at this Wikipedia page: There are links attached...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALP-45DP

Long Island Mike

 

[DavidH]

Why? Even the diesel locomotives used now have electric motors. NJ Transit and AMT have both ordered them.

Ideally, you don't want to carry the generators and fuel around with you.

However, it's highly unlikely that GO will be entirely electrified anytime soon. There will always be rush-only service at the fringes that does not justify the cost of electrification. We may end up with a mix of equipment, with dual-mode doing the runs that require diesel usage, and electric locos/EMUS doing the core service.

 

[EnviroTO]

Ideally, you don't want to carry the generators and fuel around with you.

Considering they carry diesel electric generators on virtually every locomotive in North America they must be getting pretty efficient at it. Ideally you would want to go to lighter full electrics but considering the North American operating environment it seems smart to get dual mode locomotives. I can't see lightly used lines, such as Bolton, Peterborough, and Orangeville, getting electrified for a long time. It seems there would be benefits to having dual mode locomotives around so regardless of where in the network the train comes from it could switch to electric when it arrives at the core network.