Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[Palma]

I think going to a flat fare would be completely counterproductive. A rate set appropriately for Union would be so absurd for Bloor and Weston that there would be no point in stopping at all. And a rate set appropriately for Bloor and Weston would bring in a lot less revenue than we could otherwise get for trips from Union.

As has been stated an endless number of times, the GO fare structure is already sufficient to discourage trips such as Weston-Union or Pearson-Weston. It has a base fare and a zone fare component, and the base fare of $4.71 on Presto ($5.30 cash) makes any trip way more expensive than by TTC before even adding the zone charges.

If that does still result in too much commuter demand, a flat surcharge could be applied to UPX services (i.e. a higher base fare). There is no need to eliminate the zone component altogether.

are you saying its purposely to discourage Weston to Union ridership

 

[reaperexpress]

what is still below demand. in other words you may see ridership from Weston to Uni9on at lets say 7.000. Does that not stand to reason if you further lower the fare. an increase in passengers. If that's the goal or at least see if there is even more demand at a lower level (just not $0)

I'm sorry, I'm not really sure what you're asking.

When I talk about limiting demand, I am talking about not having any Union-Pearson passengers standing as a result of Union-Bloor or Union-Weston demand. The goal would be that during rush hour, trains arrive/leave Union with about 225 out of 240 seats occupied. If there are fewer than 225 seats occupied (as currently), the fares need to be decreased. If there are more than 225 seats occupied, the fares need to be increased, predominantly for the Bloor and Weston commuters.

The purpose of UP is not to serve demand along the corridor. That job falls on GO. The fundamental reason there has been such a push for UP to cater to local demand is that GO is not providing enough service. It makes sense to allow some commuter usage on UP if there happens to be spare capacity, but that must take a back seat to the primary objective, which is accessing Pearson Airport. Any commuter demand beyond that amount should be accommodated through increased GO service, which a far more cost effective way of carrying passengers.

 

[nfitz]

I don't see how you get the standard TTC fare for an express to downtown. $6.50 cash, $5.80 with Presto. Monthly pass = $183

The current GO fare from Bloor to Union (which being in the same zone, is the minimum fare) is $5.30 cash; $4.71 with presto; pass = $168.10

So basically, a premium over the existing GO fare. And why not, it's a premium service.

 

[crs1026]

sounds like you are trying to measure demand for ST...I said ReR

If I could get an explanation of the difference, I could apply it better

I would expect that in time, GO trains from beyond about Malton would make fewer stops, and some other service would make all the stops from Maltonish to Union.

- Paul

 

[Palma]

I don't see how you get the standard TTC fare for an express to downtown. $6.50 cash, $5.80 with Presto. Monthly pass = $183

The current GO fare from Bloor to Union (which being in the same zone, is the minimum fare) is $5.30 cash; $4.71 with presto; pass = $168.10

So basically, a premium over the existing GO fare. And why not, it's a premium service.

so why is it there is little demand for GO in Toronto for GO and Go fares? Did TTC or GO not try something with a ttc pass and a certain amount over that would get unlimited GO rides but there was little demand for it

 

[Palma]

I'm sorry, I'm not really sure what you're asking.

When I talk about limiting demand, I am talking about not having any Union-Pearson passengers standing as a result of Union-Bloor or Union-Weston demand. The goal would be that during rush hour, trains arrive/leave Union with about 225 out of 240 seats occupied. If there are fewer than 225 seats occupied (as currently), the fares need to be decreased. If there are more than 225 seats occupied, the fares need to be increased, predominantly for the Bloor and Weston commuters.

The purpose of UP is not to serve demand along the corridor. That job falls on GO. The fundamental reason there has been such a push for UP to cater to local demand is that GO is not providing enough service. It makes sense to allow some commuter usage on UP if there happens to be spare capacity, but that must take a back seat to the primary objective, which is accessing Pearson Airport. Any commuter demand beyond that amount should be accommodated through increased GO service, which a far more cost effective way of carrying passengers.

are there currently 225 out of 240 seats occupied by Union to Pearson ridership?

 

[Palma]

I don't see how you get the standard TTC fare for an express to downtown. $6.50 cash, $5.80 with Presto. Monthly pass = $183

The current GO fare from Bloor to Union (which being in the same zone, is the minimum fare) is $5.30 cash; $4.71 with presto; pass = $168.10

So basically, a premium over the existing GO fare. And why not, it's a premium service.

and empty

 

[TOareaFan]

If I could get an explanation of the difference, I could apply it better

As I understand it ST is really just ReR with extra stops added....outside of the Crosstown stop you mentioned...I think the others are "extra" and therefore ST not ReR.

All I was saying was that allowing GO fares on UP between the 3 existing 416 stops would be a decent proxy for how much demand there is for ReR which would operate, presumably, at the same GO fares and on the same frequency (15 mins) as what some are proposing for UP between those stops.

 

[k10ery]

you are assuming that trains will fill at GO fares? Riding the line I don't think there is enough demand at Weston and Bloor to do that....there will be an increase in traffic....but not to the point where Arnie Airtraveller is left standing.

I do think so. I'm a bit vague on the numbers, but UPX capacity today is just 750 per hour right? With 28000+ using Dundas West every day, I can easily believe that a $5 fare would find 750 people at the peak hour in afternoon who wanted to travel from Union to Bloor. I mean, if not, then what are we talking about ST and a western DRL for?

They can't cut fares to the point there'd be no seats available between Union and Bloor.

You mean it isn't possible, or they mustn't? Anyway, see above.

 

[TOareaFan]

I do think so. I'm a bit vague on the numbers, but UPX capacity today is just 750 per hour right? With 28000+ using Dundas West every day, I can easily believe that a $5 fare would find 750 people at the peak hour in afternoon who wanted to travel from Union to Bloor. I mean, if not, then what are we talking about ST and a western DRL for?

In the peak hour, that same fare is already available to them....and they don't use it in any significant numbers.

 

[the lemur]

so why is it there is little demand for GO in Toronto for GO and Go fares? Did TTC or GO not try something with a ttc pass and a certain amount over that would get unlimited GO rides but there was little demand for it

I think the cost of adding the GO sticker to a Metropass did not appeal to more than a small number of commuters. I know a guy who rides from Old Cummer to Union just to be able to get a seat but the higher fares on GO combined with the much smaller number of stops makes its appeal limited.

If Smart Track ended up being something like a service using GO equipment or similar heavy rail, running at a frequency approaching subway-style service, to more stops, that might be more appealing depending on the fare. However, I'm told that's not possible since GO/UP-type DMUs can't do frequent stops and starts?! Sounds dubious to me.

 

[reaperexpress]

are there currently 225 out of 240 seats occupied by Union to Pearson ridership?

I'm pretty sure you're trolling at this point.

 

[Palma]

I do think so. I'm a bit vague on the numbers, but UPX capacity today is just 750 per hour right? With 28000+ using Dundas West every day, I can easily believe that a $5 fare would find 750 people at the peak hour in afternoon who wanted to travel from Union to Bloor. I mean, if not, then what are we talking about ST and a western DRL for?



You mean it isn't possible, or they mustn't? Anyway, see above.

People can stand. i stood on the free weekend going to Union

 

[Palma]

In the peak hour, that same fare is already available to them....and they don't use it in any significant numbers.

Because of the fare. But its true, if there is lack of ridership then there should be no talk of ST in the West or DRL but there is much discussion on that

 

[TOareaFan]

Because of the fare. But its true, if there is lack of ridership then there should be no talk of ST in the West or DRL but there is much discussion on that

I was responding to a post that said

I can easily believe that a $5 fare would find 750 people at the peak hour in afternoon who wanted to travel from Union to Bloor.

I was suggesting that very same fare at +/- the same frequencies (in the peak hour referred to) are not being utilized in great numbers today.

So if you are suggesting that $5 is not going to attract riders from Bloor or Weston in significant numbers....then you are suggesting that ReR as envisioned will not either.