Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[TOareaFan]

This whole thing is extremely sad.

Why do we, as a population, immediately assume there must be 1 and only 1 way to get to the airport? Particularly when the railway corridor is 4 to 6 tracks wide?

Yes, UPX is expensive and ONLY goes downtown. So, demand greatly enhanced GO frequencies as well!

And some sort of link between the GO and the airport.....then there would be 3 ways to get there by transit (excluding the existing GO buses from Yorkdale and York Mills).

1)...Cheapest .....regular TTC fair subway/bus combo that takes the longest.
2)....GO service to airport via Malton GO ...likely takes 40 minutes or so, faster than TTC option and likely costing +/- $7.
3)....UPe as a premium service costing $20+ but shortest travel time..no transfers and nice amenities.

Given the proximity of the Malton GO to the airport we are very close to having those 3 options now.

 

[salsa]

Article or opinion piece? It only took them 3 words to get to " business class jet-setters"

Which part do you disagree with, other than those couple of words?

 

[TOareaFan]

Which part do you disagree with, other than those couple of words?

I was just saying that when you start a piece with those words it is far more opinion/column (which is fine) than an "article".

As I have said previously in this thread, the vast majority of business travellers are not a) in business class or b) "jet setters".

As for things I disagree with....well this statement for one:

“It’s not going to work at 25 or 30 dollars,” says Boutros. “It just simply won’t. It’s as simple as that. The price point that you can make an argument for: 15 to 18 dollars. But that’s up to Metrolinx.”

For one thing it has now moved the projected range from $20-$30 (which ML have never confirmed/stated) to $25-$30 and completely ignores that lots of people (as many as 400k at one time) were willing to pay that for a bus that left every 40 minutes and had no guaranteed trip time. The higher frequency and guaranteed trip times must be appealing to somebody....no?

I also take exception to this statement:

In terms of the service model, Matlow would have liked to see a connection between the UP Express, and the Eglinton Crosstown, currently under construction — something he says was part of the original plan. Still others would have liked to see more stops, so the line might double as added Toronto transit, and not simply a ride to the airport.

While on the surface there may not be any falsehoods in there, it completely ignores some realities.

1)....not sure ML has ever actually said there will never be a stop at Eglinton
2)....if a stop at Eglinton is delayed/cancelled it has come because of the forced useless stop at Weston. brought on by many of the same people complaining now.
3)...the people who want to add even more stops are aware (I assume) of the limited size of these vehicles and that the limited size is kinda forced by where they are going (ie. that's pretty much all that would fit at the airport) so when they say they want this to double as Toronto Transit they are essentially saying that a 160 passenger train passing by every 15 minutes is gonna make a transit impact...is that right?

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Which part do you disagree with, other than those couple of words?

The price of admission, an estimated $20-30.

Who's estimate? I think the general sentiment among the public is that this estimate has come directly from Metrolinx/UPX when they have never made an announcement regarding pricing level (except maybe when it was still the Blue22 plan). Given that, I feel it is important in a journalistic sense to clarify that the estimate is in no way an official estimate from Metrolinx.

 

[dowlingm]

The UPX pricing issue is symptomatic of Metrolinx generally - they do not have the same notion of public engagement as agencies like TTC (and we know how frustrating those guys can be). There are board meetings, sure, but information is dribbled out, usually with a higher picture/content ratio than TTC uses. Woodbridge_Heights rails against loose press lips sinking... uh... rail projects without recognising the frustration attached to a "fact vacuum" which Metrolinx have it in their power to fill.

If UPX is priced at GO fares all day, three things will happen in my guesstimation:

• Much business traffic will not transfer because of the possibility of trains being overbooked. Taxis and YTZ will continue to be attractive options.
• Much transit traffic will transfer. A somewhat better experience but we would then have spent a lot of money to replace some 192 and 52/58 frequencies which could have been achieved in other ways.
• UPX will not cover its operating costs (even when not including interest on capital, which I don't think GO routes have to concern themselves with either?)

Small net mode shift and subsidising express service is not going to go over well, nor should it.

That said, off peak (2200-0600?) I think there is scope to use UPX as an integral part of GO service in the Kitchener Corridor if loads are low (since the minimum capacity will be 120 per service). For example, people currently on 31 services Union-Malton/Bramalea and beyond could instead be put on a train to Pearson and transfer. The bus-hours could be saved or redirected to additional/other service as part of coordination with 34 services from York Mills through Pearson. Not necessarily timesaving for the bus passengers, admittedly, but presumably the UPX part of the ride would be more comfortable including the wait in the Union Lounge. People further uptown (Bloor/Weston) wishing to take these onward trips would now have access to them.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

From the Spacing article:

The story of the UP Express, throughout its development, has been plagued with missed opportunities. It could have, for instance, been electrified by time of completion. This, Junction Triangle residents argued for years, would reduce diesel emissions in their neighbourhood, as well as remove the need for the planned 5-metre high sound walls.

How is this myth that electrification would eliminate the need for sound walls keep getting repeated when it has no basis in fact? The walls are required with or without electrification. I hate when this lie is brought up again and again.

 

[TOareaFan]

From the Spacing article:



How is this myth that electrification would eliminate the need for sound walls keep getting repeated when it has no basis in fact? The walls are required with or without electrification. I hate when this lie is brought up again and again.

When I was asked what I disliked about the Spacing opinion piece I wanted to include that (because I thought it was as you say) but my technical knowledge is not has high as others here...so I hoped someone else would dispute it....thanks.

 

[salsa]

Spacing usually writes good quality articles, but it looks like this one fell short.

 

[ssiguy2]

You guys are proceeding from a false assumption................that airport travellers are rich and only business class.

What about the thousands who actually WORK at the airport and paid taxes to build it. Don't they count? Many people who work at airports are also low income............security guards, restaurant workers, sales people, flight attendants, ticket sellers, etc..........their taxes were good enough to pay for the line but apparently their social and economic status doesn't qualify for them to take it.

As for travellers, yes if you are flying you are not dirt poor but that doesn't make you wealthy either. Canada is a big country and train travel is limited to the Corridor. Even cheap vacations, visiting family, friends or emergencies outside the Corridor requires air travel in a country as large as ours.

Not all tourists coming to the city are wealthy either. Most tourists travel in at least pairs {hence nearly all hotel rooms are charged on double occupancy} and for 2 people the UPX is hardly worth it and certainly not if your hotel isn't right at Union Station. As for 3 or more travellers, the UPX is a huge expense.

As for business travellers, most are not in the 1%. All you have to do is look around in any airplane and see the very few seats for the business class while the 95% of the rest of the plane, the passengers are squeezed in like sardines and consider themselves fortunate if they are offered a refill on their coffee. Someone is going to tell me that those 95% are all tourist and not a good chunk are business people who, wait for it, have to travel on a budget?

This line is only expected to carry 5000 passengers a day.................that is pathetic beyond belief, even by American standards.
It's amazing how a $500 million line running to the airport is going to cost $25 but Vancouver built a $2.4 billion line serving the airport that runs every 6-7 minutes all day and night and will get you to the airport in the same amount of time is only $5 from anywhere. A flat $5 whether you are coming in from Maple Ridge, Langley, White Rock, or Lion's Bay.

 

[TOareaFan]

There was a good article from Spacing recently about the UPX fares. It's well worth the read.

http://spacing.ca/toronto/2014/08/20/express-metrolinx-overpriced-new-link-airport/

Spacing usually writes good quality articles, but it looks like this one fell short.

We'll take that as a retraction then....

 

[Filip]

You guys are proceeding from a false assumption................that airport travellers are rich and only business class.

What about the thousands who actually WORK at the airport and paid taxes to build it. Don't they count? Many people who work at airports are also low income............security guards, restaurant workers, sales people, flight attendants, ticket sellers, etc..........their taxes were good enough to pay for the line but apparently their social and economic status doesn't qualify for them to take it.

As for travellers, yes if you are flying you are not dirt poor but that doesn't make you wealthy either. Canada is a big country and train travel is limited to the Corridor. Even cheap vacations, visiting family, friends or emergencies outside the Corridor requires air travel in a country as large as ours.

Not all tourists coming to the city are wealthy either. Most tourists travel in at least pairs {hence nearly all hotel rooms are charged on double occupancy} and for 2 people the UPX is hardly worth it and certainly not if your hotel isn't right at Union Station. As for 3 or more travellers, the UPX is a huge expense.

As for business travellers, most are not in the 1%. All you have to do is look around in any airplane and see the very few seats for the business class while the 95% of the rest of the plane, the passengers are squeezed in like sardines and consider themselves fortunate if they are offered a refill on their coffee. Someone is going to tell me that those 95% are all tourist and not a good chunk are business people who, wait for it, have to travel on a budget?

This line is only expected to carry 5000 passengers a day.................that is pathetic beyond belief, even by American standards.
It's amazing how a $500 million line running to the airport is going to cost $25 but Vancouver built a $2.4 billion line serving the airport that runs every 6-7 minutes all day and night and will get you to the airport in the same amount of time is only $5 from anywhere. A flat $5 whether you are coming in from Maple Ridge, Langley, White Rock, or Lion's Bay.

As a tourist, I usually don't care what the cost to get downtwon from the airport is, as long as it is simple. I automatically gravitate to any rail connection to the city. Easiest way not to get lost on your first day. I am usually stunned when a large city does not have a rail connection into downtown.

As for business travellers, very few companies allow anything but economy class (at my company, flights over 6h can be booked in business, but all my travel is within North America).
You are also encouraged to find the most cost/time efficient way to get to your destination from the airport (we are implicitly told to use rail travel when available).

 

[salsa]

We'll take that as a retraction then....

Sort of, however I still think there's good reason to take issue with the high fares. There's a part that said "Transportation Minister Steven Del Duca points to comparable fares for airport express lines in London, Oslo, and Tokyo." So Toronto in the same league as London, Oslo, and Tokyo? UPX will be the most expensive rail link in North America. I'm also concerned that airport employees will be priced out. But that being said, I will wait for the final fares to be announced, and see what kind of variable pricing will exist for distance, groups, children, and frequent users.

 

[Filip]

Sort of, however I still think there's good reason to take issue with the high fares. There's a part that said "Transportation Minister Steven Del Duca points to comparable fares for airport express lines in London, Oslo, and Tokyo." So Toronto in the same league as London, Oslo, and Tokyo? UPX will be the most expensive rail link in North America. I'm also concerned that airport employees will be priced out. But that being said, I will wait for the final fares to be announced, and see what kind of variable pricing will exist for distance, groups, children, and frequent users.

UPE is one of the very few traditional heavy rail airport links in North America.

Chicago gets a subway line, New York gets the AirTrain to nowhere, a bunch of smaller cities get an LRT line... I can't think of many heavy rail connections to the airport.

In Europe, they're priced accordingly. Paris is currently building a comparable link to CDG in order to acommodate tourists and business travellers who don't want to ride the RER B through Paris' ghettos (banlieus). London has the Gatwick and Heathrow Express (worth every pence of that high cost)...

 

[TOareaFan]

Sort of, however I still think there's good reason to take issue with the high fares. There's a part that said "Transportation Minister Steven Del Duca points to comparable fares for airport express lines in London, Oslo, and Tokyo." So Toronto in the same league as London, Oslo, and Tokyo?

Of course we're not in the same league as Oslo All kidding aside, where is this league table we are supposed to follow? What does it matter what "league" we are in? Infrastructure has a cost, business models are built and while you can look around the world for examples of what has been done, you ultimately have to design your own model with your own local dynamics in place.

It is interesting, to me, that the media outlets trying to get people fired up about the theoretical pricing model are engaging in a little bit of intellectual dishonesty. They are happy to point to places where the rail link is cheaper but are a little shy on the details of the types of services they are comparing (the $5 ride from O'hare is a comarison to UPe...really?). They do not, however, point out where there are areas where Toronto is doing better (eg. compare the fare of Montreal's 747 bus connecting to the Metro at Lionel-Groulx station {the first available metro station} with the TTC's rocket express connecting with the first available subway stop at Kipling).

There seems to be some sort of agenda as opposed to objective reporting.

 

[ksun]

Norway has a per capita GDP twice that of Canada ($100k vs 52k), and Oslo is one of the most expensive cities on earth, so using Oslo is indeed as inappropriate as London and Tokyo.
Cities like Rome, Madrid and Chicago are more comparable.

As to the rail link from O'Hara been different service, true, but is Toronto even providing a similar service charging $5? I would happily pay $5 to have one subway ride directly to Yonge/Queen, even for 25 minutes more (in which case hardly anyone would be angry about UPe since most won't be using that).

Compare to Montreal, really? A city that is at best stagnant for decades with crumbling infrastructure just to feel good?