Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

ssiguy2 said:
How could they have not already done these simulations?
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smallspy says that they have. Why do you not believe him?

ssiguy2 said:
They may not know the price exactly but certainly know the rough price within a dollar or two.
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How can they, when it's a political decision. We don't even know who will be Premier in 2 years time - let alone what the political decision will be.

ssiguy2 said:
Isn't it prudent when constructing a rail corridor to know how much your revenue on the line will be BEFORE you start building it so you don't have a Mirabel on your hands?
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They never started building the rail link to Mirabel. All they did was rough out the station in foundations, and leave some space down the centre of Autoroute 50 (which was only the access road to Mirabel back then).

ssiguy2 said:
That is just further proof that this line is being built exclusively for the PanAm Games to save Toronto the embarassment of not having a rail line to Pearson.
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That makes no sense. Prime Minister Chretien provide the capital funding for the line 5 years before the Pan Am bid started.
 
smallspy said:
No, actually they haven't set a fee yet.

They have run simulations with a number of different pricing "targets", but have not settled on a final price. And it looks like they may not until a couple of months before the opening, as they are also getting pressure from the politicians up above as well.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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Interesting. But in this case a "simulation" is just making a guess, then multiplying two numbers together. it doesn't take four years, and it is no subsitute for the real experience.

If thery're smart they'll operate in the first month or so for free. (As did 407 IIRC.) They need to learn what the demand curve looks like - i.e. how many people will ride at a low price, and at a high price.
 
k10ery said:
Interesting. But in this case a "simulation" is just making a guess, then multiplying two numbers together. it doesn't take four years, and it is no subsitute for the real experience.

If thery're smart they'll operate in the first month or so for free. (As did 407 IIRC.) They need to learn what the demand curve looks like - i.e. how many people will ride at a low price, and at a high price.
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The 407 ran for free when it opened but not as some market research/demand calculator.....the road was ready before the tolling system was fully installed/tested so they through the doors open for a while.

One of the funniest commutes of my life was the day they started charging........over night a whole bunch of people rediscovered the 401...sure, most of them came back (proving that people will pay for a quicker/less stressful commute) but that first day of pay to drive was quite funny.
 
Actually, if they do indeed have a Dundas West stop this service will be very useful and convenient for me to use. Cheaper and more reliable than a taxi/airport limo. More expensive but faster, more reliable, and more convenient then taking the TTC bus from Kipling. Faster, more reliable and cheaper than driving and parking at the airport.
 
TOareaFan said:
And, unlike the stop at Weston, this was always in the plans.
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Indeed. I remember doing a project in 1ST YEAR UNIVERSITY (2005!!!!) on the then-Blue 22 project, and even then the listed stops were Union, Dundas West, Pearson.

Kind of sad (in terms of the speed of infrastructure projects) that I was able to both start and finish a degree in Planning in the time it took them to get from planning the project to... still planning the project.
 
When I mentioned Mirabel I wasn't referring to the rail link but rather an analogy of a white elephant of which Mirabel is the mother of them all.
 
ssiguy2 said:
When I mentioned Mirabel I wasn't referring to the rail link but rather an analogy of a white elephant of which Mirabel is the mother of them all.
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Which makes you even more off-base.

The majority of the 1.2 billion spend is on upgrades to the corridor itself, upgrades that will benefit any form of rail service the line will see and this line is posed to see a huge increase one way or another. Only a small portion of that is going to items exclusive to the UPX such as the 128 million expense for the 3km elevated viaduct to the airport and the cost of 3 specialized station platforms at Union, Weston and the Airport. The equipment itself could be re-used or sold off. And I'd imagine that the $100 million they mention for service development business and operations planning is mostly allocated to hiring, training and maintaining a larger work force, all of which can be differed to expanded service in other corridors if need be. Hence if it were to fail, there will be some waste but any comparison to Mirabel is ludicrous, they're not even in the same league yet alone same ballpark.
 
vegeta_skyline said:
Which makes you even more off-base.

The majority of the 1.2 billion spend is on upgrades to the corridor itself, upgrades that will benefit any form of rail service the line will see and this line is posed to see a huge increase one way or another. Only a small portion of that is going to items exclusive to the UPX such as the 128 million expense for the 3km elevated viaduct to the airport and the cost of 3 specialized station platforms at Union, Weston and the Airport. The equipment itself could be re-used or sold off. And I'd imagine that the $100 million they mention for service development business and operations planning is mostly allocated to hiring, training and maintaining a larger work force, all of which can be differed to expanded service in other corridors if need be. Hence if it were to fail, there will be some waste but any comparison to Mirabel is ludicrous, they're not even in the same league yet alone same ballpark.
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Metrolinx shows the $1.2B cost of the GTS project separate from the $450 million cost of UPE....so you could argue that all of the $1.2B was spent for public benefit.....but then you would have to question if 5 return train trips is enough value for that amount of spend.
 
TOareaFan said:
Metrolinx shows the $1.2B cost of the GTS project separate from the $450 million cost of UPE....so you could argue that all of the $1.2B was spent for public benefit.....but then you would have to question if 5 return train trips is enough value for that amount of spend.
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But 5 return trips is just what the corridor will see on Day 1 after construction is complete. The upgrades basically make the corridor electrification-ready. Once the Lakeshore line and the Union track area are electrified too, that 5 return trips a day can easily become 4 return trips an hour.
 
gweed123 said:
But 5 return trips is just what the corridor will see on Day 1 after construction is complete. The upgrades basically make the corridor electrification-ready. Once the Lakeshore line and the Union track area are electrified too, that 5 return trips a day can easily become 4 return trips an hour.
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In an era where the concept of asking the public to fund more and more directly to transit infrastructure is a question of how and when as opposed to if....that immediate impact day 1 service level is very important. If all people see for over a $1B of spend is a very small increase in service they will, naturally, wonder what benefit there is to giving more.
 
Presumably the GTS work will also have a knock-on effect for (as an example) CP freights with fewer issues around slots to cross the junction from the Milton to the North Toronto line, like those carrying new streetcars to the Hillcrest delivery spur track. Not merely a benefit for the incremental *passenger* trains.
 
I know most of the funds being spent on the UP line is combined with the Kitchener upgrade.

If it was private company running a private service on their own private land then who cares? That, however, is not the case. Not only are Ontarians paying for this line and yet will serve a very small number of people but it is also taking up space on a very valuable rail corridor which could be used for a GO REX system or as part of the western section of a DRL.
 
dowlingm said:
Presumably the GTS work will also have a knock-on effect for (as an example) CP freights with fewer issues around slots to cross the junction from the Milton to the North Toronto line, like those carrying new streetcars to the Hillcrest delivery spur track. Not merely a benefit for the incremental *passenger* trains.
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I think the public will, and have a right to, judge any spending of current or future transportation infrastructure dollars on "how does it move more people more effectively"....after all, the new revenue tools are being sold on the basis that the money is needed to boost public transit infrastructure.

As I have stated (boringly repeatedly, I am sure) a $1.2B spend to get 5 more trains into Toronto and back in the transit corridor the Big Move described as the second most dense in the region, is a pretty awful return on spend and that will make the selling of future taxes (which is what us old folks called "revenue tools") to a jaded public very difficult indeed.
 
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