Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

CDL: The difference is that when a plane stops at an airport anyone getting on has to go through airport security, along with their baggage. The same is true with baggage that is being moved from plane to plane which in theory has to go through security as well. Having local passengers board without the same security checks would be a compromise to the system.
 
But there are no security checks before boarding a train. Security checks will occur at the airport as always. As long as baggage is kept in a separate compartment not accessible to travellers, it wouldn't matter how many stops there are. After all, they are talking about a stop at Bloor for Blue 22 anyway.

Guess all I'm asking is how exactly could tampering occur?

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BTW, checked baggage doesn't usually go through any security checks and certainly wouldn't when being transferred between flights.
 
That's right, CDL. As long as baggage is secure in a sealed part of the train, the number of stops doesn't matter. Will checked bags be screened at Union too, or at Pearson anyway?

And what's the point of checked baggage when so much traffic from YYZ is trans-border anyway though? You don't lose the luggage until after you go through US customs and immigration.

Unless Blue22 is going to offer a sealed rail car and passages from the station to the transborder terminal areas, and US customs preclearance at Union Station.
 
SeanTrans provides a nice summary of the situation. Is it so much to ask that some thought be given to those of us who aren't part of the "premium market" but still have places and jobs to get to but are simply ignored because we're not profitable enough?

I've never said that blue 22 should somehow preclude GO improvements, and I don't see how it does. In fact, it makes them much more likely thanks to the many line improvements that would be built as part of the project.

The common approach to this in most cities in the world is to charge a premium fare to the Airport while regular fares to intermediate stops. Examples include New York, San Francisco, London, Rome, future Vancouver (IIRC), and many others.

I never claimed that local service should be covering its costs. I don't expect any sort of local transit to cover its costs... what's important is providing that transit in the first place. I'm sure more than a half-dozen Weston passengers would be willing to ride such a service. As for "taking seats"... trains can be extended, I don't think we have to worry about packed 8 car trains running to the airport. Heck, reserve as many carriages as you need for premium airport travellers and let local travellers use the rest.

The markets are simply completely different. As we all know, there is no profit to be made in running local transit. This is a premium operation that will be successful based on its premium quality service. A car tacked onto the back of a GO train won't cut it. Arlanda Express, Stansted Express, CDG Express, Narita Express, and countless others don't stop at intermediate points. I obviously think that local transit service should still be provided to the airport. I just also think that Blue 22 should operate if it proves financially viable, because I think it provides a unique service that will get cars (cabs) off the Gardiner (these riders are not getting poached from the Airport Rocket) and make downtown more accessible.


I'll be fine if a private express service operates under these conditions:

I definitely agree with some of these conditions, but I think that others pose significant issues.

- That a slightly slower transit service also provides a reasonable and frequent serviceto the airport and the communities along the route.

Absolutely. Pending the construction of a major high-speed, GO, and Airport Express hub at Terminal 1, the most reasonable approach would be a people mover to the GO line, which would be benefitting from all-day service thanks to the improved line.

- That the transit service is given the same access to the rails as the private express service, and not excluded because of some deal between SNC Lavalin and the GTAA or CN

Absolutely. It's simply absurd that this line will be upgraded from a mostly single track line from the turn of the 20th century to a four-track speedway entirely at public expense and will then be handed to CN for free, only so that CN can fight every passenger service improvement. The line should be publicly owned and fairly dispatched for all users. That goes for the adjacent CP line, too. The capacity of a four-track line is far higher than two adjacent double tracks.

- That the private service pays its own share of the costs of the upgrades to the tracks (say pay into an infrastructure fund for GO track improvements that it is already benefiting from)

Lavalin will be paying some of the capital costs, but as we all know, transit services simply cannot afford to cover both their capital and operating costs. Lavalin will be taking a significant risk just getting the operating costs below the revenues.
- That GO/GTTA is able to provide a regional rail service to Brampton or Georgetown along the tracks, either as part of the transit service to Pearson, or as a separate service.

GO should absolutely be offering S-Bahn level service on the improved corridor.

- That VIA can also provide additional service on the corridor

You know where I'm coming from, so it won't surprise you to know that I wholeheartedly agree. I also want that VIA service to stop at the new airport people mover station.

They didn't even promise hourly GO service in the original EA consultations, just the 20 minute frequency Blue22 and a few additional GO trains.

Blue 22 wouldn't have provided local service, but it didn't somehow preclude local service improvements. They're completely different markets. Improved local services would have been much easier with the infrastructure improvements accompanying Blue 22.
 
Blue 22 doesn't make much sense without it serving some local areas en route as well. S-Bahning the Geogretown Line when it already has an underused station well within proximity of Pearson is overkill. It's better to extend the people-mover to Malton GO and make it bi-directional. A stop at Woodbine (Hwy 27) makes no sense either because most of the intensification nodes needed to make it a viable stop are way up the road (Racetrack, Rexdale Blvd., Woodbine Ctr., Humber College).

Feeding off the lands set aside for the defunct Richview Expressway wouldn't it be more sensible to revitalize the Eglinton West proposal? Via Eglinton and Dixon, the line would serve both local and airport-bound markets not to mention bring desperately needed passenger volumes to the Spadina Line. Supposing the LRT tunnel's built and one day converted to subway, the only real subway needed for the line to happen would be from Black Creek westwards.
 
Malton's only underused because it has only 9 round trips Monday-Friday. And for 5 of those round trips (at least) it's actually quite well used.

Woodbine is in a great location for a S-Bahn station for a park-and-ride, bus connections to Humber College, Rexdale, Woodbridge, that disconnected bit of Brampton on the east of the Humber River, and next to Woodbine and the massive Woodbine Live! mega-development. It's never going to be a high-density node because it is in airport flightpaths, but it does have potential. And it is the most logical point for transfers from VIA, GO and S-Bahn (at least points west) to a rail shuttle to the terminals. Weston and Mount Dennis are high density areas also with great redevelopment potential.

This line is perfect for several different types of rail service -a decent intercity service to Guelph/Kitchener/Stratford/London (more than what's there), commuter trains to Guelph/Georgetown, S-Bahn to Brampton (with several stops in Toronto and an airport connection) and if there's a market, an express airport shuttle that wouldn't interfere or preclude the more needed services. A line via Richview would be a whole different ballgame.
 
Unimaginative - we've found our point on agreement, I think.

The original plan was bad for many reasons. I just hope things are worked out for the new EA that actually acknowledges the need for the multiple service types desired and at least two rail-based service options for getting to Pearson (local rapid public transit and express super-premium).

OT: Tomorrow, I'm flying into BWI. I'm intending to take the LRT to downtown Baltimore from there. Returning on Monday from Washington, I'm taking the Northeast Corridor to BWI airport station and taking the shuttle to the terminal.
 
A line via Richview would be a whole different ballgame.

How exactly?

I live in Brampton and love the fact it takes only 45 minutes on a good day to get to Union. I fear a S-Bahn might lengthen my commute. Furthermore can the corridor even handle VIA, GO, freight and Blue 22 all at once? Blue 22 assumingly has to be an all-day service. West of Keele St the concessions are far apart, such that even to serve the local intersections (Weston, Jane, Scarlett, Royal, Islington, Kipling, Martin Grove, City View, Atwell, Carlingview) it'd still be a relatively quick commute to the airport.

I also like your ideas for a Woodbine stop, but was thinking more towards building such facilities at Black Creek/Eglinton whereby via the 400 Vaughn/King City/Brantford/Barrie; Nobleton/Bolton (relocated from Etobicoke North) could be undertaken. The City View stop could be the base point for rapid transit (BRT/LRT) up the 27 corridor into Woodbridge, which during AM/PM peak could directly service ETN Stn via Belfield.

I just think freeing up airport-bound commuters from the Geogretown line has more benefits than losses as it would trigger the long awaited York City Centre development, not overkill NIMBY-infested Weston, not cause massive delays on the Geogretown Line (I'm sure veering so far off course then rejoinng the alignment will cause technical malfunctions especially during winter), and bring mass transit to a broader segment of riders (MT via Renforth, BD-bound bus riders, businesses along Eglinton, YUS transfers).
 
I'm a former Brampton resident so I know the line well. I really hated the GO service if only because it was near-useless at most times of the day (slow bus coming every 3 hours to Union, etc). Smaller trains running much more frequently wouldn't add much more time than the big bilevels, and I would only add stations at Woodbine, Mount Dennis (Eglinton) and Parkdale (Queen) to a Brampton S-Bahn service, and with better tracks and rail cars suited to more stop-and-go service, it would still only be no more than 45 minutes from Downtown Brampton to Union, hopefully less. Mount Pleasant would probably be the logical terminal for S-Bahn.

And there would still be a place for the GO bilevels - the commuter runs that would run from Guelph/Georgetown and then express from Bramalea and/or Malton.

With 3-4 tracks, proper signalling and management, you could run hundreds of trains a day in the corridor. And with the benefits to Weston, you'd separate the reasoned Blue22 oppostion from the fewer true NIMBYs.
 
It's never going to be a high-density node because it is in airport flightpaths, but it does have potential.

Ever been to Pentagon City across the river from Washington? It's *literally* a stone's throw from the runways at National and it's plenty dense.
 
If the GTAA is so concerned about a downtown rail link, why don't they just apply to extend their people mover along the 409 to meet up with the Georgetown line... and request GO Transit build another stop there? Isn't that how Trudeau has a rail-ish link with the Dorval Stop on their commuter rail?
 
Density doesn't necessarily matter - casinos, malls, schools, etc., are not 'dense' like a cluster of towers is, but they sure do generate a lot of trips.
 
Georgetown has a train traffic jam at rush hour...

You have long freight trains, local freight trains, VIA trains and then you have GO trains.
 
Trudeau airport is getting a diversion of the rail line and an express train to downtown. A people mover to the GO line in Toronto is an obvious temporary choice, sort of like OrlyVAL.
 

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