Toronto Union Park | 303.26m | 58s | Oxford Properties | Pelli Clarke Pelli

I think it says two casinos in the Toronto area. So, theoretically, that could mean 1 in Toronto and 1 in Markham or Mississauga..etc.

Could mean, one in downtown, and keeping the existing Woodbine site with more bells and whistles
Then again, i would not mind 2 major Casinos downtown which would basically... rejuvenate two districts of this city that need much help.


A Las Vegas gambling giant has partnered with a Canadian property management firm in an effort to build a massive casino and resort along the city’s waterfront.
According to a press release issued Thursday, MGM Resorts International and Cadillac Fairview Corporation Limited have entered into a “50/50 joint venture” to bid for, develop and operate a “destination-style, integrated resort complex” in the city.
The complex would be built at Exhibition Place and would include a permanent venue for Montreal’s Cirque du Soleil as well as gaming, hotel, retail and conference facilities

http://www.cp24.com/news/mgm-partners-with-cadillac-fairview-on-proposed-casino-1.1137346
 
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As much as I like the towers, etc. I don't think this development is what Toronto needs at all. Not with a mega-casino anyway.

We urgently need to create strong cohesive neighbourhoods in the city's core, and this project will most likely get in the way of that.

This is more Niagara Falls than Millenium Park.
 
Really? I thought the convention centre was on its own south of the tracks, connected to the office/residential by the park over the tracks (and of course under the tracks). One of the things I liked about the original massing study was that it looked like things were parcelled out rather than being one big mega complex, with the convention centre separated by the park and the casino separated by John Street (or the walkway there). I presume this is all still the case (i.e., the are not decking over the tracks with a building, just the park), but what I think would really help this fit into the city is if the streets and park are all animated by actual restaurants and shops that face them, on Front, Bremner, Simcoe, Blue Jays Way, and especially on the park side.

Not to be negative, I do think the whole thing looks cool, but the massive PATH and Eaton Centre really detract from street life in Toronto and I'm concerned this will fail to promote street life in that part of the City too.

My understanding is that the park deck will be constructed over a convention centre floor, and that the convention centre would extend under parts of the entire complex. Retail above it on the east side along Front, and casino above it on the west side, to over-simplify a little. Oxford will be adding half a million square feet of new exhibition space to the convention centre, so that cannot happen by moving it all to the south side.

I am waiting to hear if there would be new under-the-tracks connections built as part of this: Oxford intends to improve the connections between the north and south buildings too.

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RC8:

I don't know about that - the casino component of the project is only the size of one city block - it really wouldn't have that much impact on building cohesive neighbourhoods in an area not exactly amenable to such given land use and other un-neighbourhoodly particularities.

AoD
 
As much as I like the towers, etc. I don't think this development is what Toronto needs at all. Not with a mega-casino anyway.

We urgently need to create strong cohesive neighbourhoods in the city's core, and this project will most likely get in the way of that.

This is more Niagara Falls than Millenium Park.

Why do we urgently need to create strong cohesive neighbourhoods in the city's core, and rather obviously I ask that with reference to this location in particular?
 
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If there was a way to tie this project's approval and ongoing revenue to surrounding infrastructure improvements (Downtown Relief Line and other transit, expanded covering of the rail corridor), I think it would be worth the risks this project brings with it.

But as I understand, that is already off the table and the money will go to the province, right?

And I do think a bigger study on the visual and traffic impact of this development on the CN Tower and the surrounding downtown as a whole is probably worth doing too before approval.
 
I like the fact it doesn't look like a casino complex. I still would like to see what the Sands casino proposal would look like. I wasn't over impressed with the Caesars entrance, i found it a little tacky compared to the rest of the towers. MGM did a fabulous job with ARIA & City Center. They really classed the strip up. I think will we all be just as impressed by the Toronto MGM renderings when they get released.
 
Why do we urgently need to create strong cohesive neighbourhoods in the city's core, and rather obviously I ask that with reference to this location in particular?

Because Toronto is still a fairly immature North American city that fails to offer families the option of not driving everywhere.

A giant casino entertainment complex here would likely price families out of the area completely if it's a success - and turn the area into a very undesirable place to raise kids if it's a failure.

If Toronto was a more mature urban area - where generations have grown up in high-density neighbourhoods and know how to behave in such - a casino wouldn't necessarily have these effects.

This area in particular is important because it's actually a really peaceful and friendly part of the city, quiet but not dead, and is walking distance to many diverse employment opportunities.

RC8:

I don't know about that - the casino component of the project is only the size of one city block - it really wouldn't have that much impact on building cohesive neighbourhoods in an area not exactly amenable to such given land use and other un-neighbourhoodly particularities.

AoD

I feel Cityplace is shaping up to become a fantastic neighbourhood in the next few decades, as the city is built out and more people make the city their 'home'. But if you put a casino here it'll continue to act as a bedroom community for those moving out of their parent's suburban homes and looking for action.

The way we treat families and seniors in North American downtowns is appalling and highly disruptive to the way a large sector of the population perceives the city.
 
RC8:

I feel Cityplace is shaping up to become a fantastic neighbourhood in the next few decades, as the city is built out and more people make the city their 'home'. But if you put a casino here it'll continue to act as a bedroom community for those moving out of their parent's suburban homes and looking for action.

The way we treat families and seniors in North American downtowns is appalling and highly disruptive to the way a large sector of the population perceives the city.

I found the assertion of having a casino 2, 3 blocks down the street will lead to Cityplace (which is a mediocre neigbhourhood IMO) becoming a bedroom community for those looking for action is unconvincing. Undesirable land use has never stopped those who wanted to raise family in the core to do so - they went in with open eyes. Segregating these "negative" externalities and pandering to the large sector of the population that demands insulation from such - which is exactly what the suburbs is about - is desirable, knowing the sustainability imperative?

A giant casino entertainment complex here would likely price families out of the area completely if it's a success - and turn the area into a very undesirable place to raise kids if it's a failure.

One is in downtown - regular middle class families will eventually be priced out of the area regardless of whether there is a casino or not.

If Toronto was a more mature urban area - where generations have grown up in high-density neighbourhoods and know how to behave in such - a casino wouldn't necessarily have these effects.

That argument is also unconvincing - there are many rapidly densifying cities around the world, people adapt - just as they did in Toronto, raising families in highrises when it would have been an unthinkable 20, 30, 40 years ago.

This area in particular is important because it's actually a really peaceful and friendly part of the city, quiet but not dead, and is walking distance to many diverse employment opportunities.

And if what you have said is true - that desirability wouldn't have driven prices up such that it is out of range of regular families?

AoD
 
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Because Toronto is still a fairly immature North American city that fails to offer families the option of not driving everywhere.

A giant casino entertainment complex here would likely price families out of the area completely if it's a success - and turn the area into a very undesirable place to raise kids if it's a failure.

Regarding your first point, Toronto needs a DRL whether this particular redevelopment occurs or not, and only improving our city with better public transportation options will fix the "driving everywhere" issue. In regard to this proposal though I see nothing that will have anything much to do with the quality of life for families in the area. There are few now, and not likely to be many more of them in these few blocks whether this gets built or not.

In regard to what the area would be like if the casino failed, there is not a chance in hell that this project would fail if it were to be built as imaged.

If Toronto was a more mature urban area - where generations have grown up in high-density neighbourhoods and know how to behave in such - a casino wouldn't necessarily have these effects.

This area in particular is important because it's actually a really peaceful and friendly part of the city, quiet but not dead, and is walking distance to many diverse employment opportunities.

People learn far more quickly than you give them credit for. If you can think this through, others can too. Why would you think that only you and a select few others might know how to behave in such high density?

The characterization of this area a "peaceful and friendly, quiet but not dead" is bizarre to say the least. Sounds more like Gerrard and Woodbine to me.

I feel Cityplace is shaping up to become a fantastic neighbourhood in the next few decades, as the city is built out and more people make the city their 'home'. But if you put a casino here it'll continue to act as a bedroom community for those moving out of their parent's suburban homes and looking for action.

The way we treat families and seniors in North American downtowns is appalling and highly disruptive to the way a large sector of the population perceives the city.

I think CityPlace is turning out better than many do, although too much of it does look the same. If it fails though, it won't be because of this one project: the city is far too complex to dump it all at the feet of a casino and appendages. To reiterate my stand, it is proper transportation that is our biggest stumbling block right now, and the city needs a DRL whether or not this goes ahead. Failure to build a DRL will cause cascading failures in surrounding areas far more than building Oxford Place will.

The families and seniors comment, especially the seniors comment, sounds like sky-is-falling fear-mongering to me. Certain areas appeal to certain groups. You simply are never going to have every area appeal to everyone… so big deal. Make things accessible, great, but if you're saying that this area should remain "quiet", or something along those lines to appease certain portions of the population, I say you're asking too much. If every area catered to everybody, then everything would be the same. I don't want a monoculture city to live in. I want leafy suburbs in appropriate spots, and I want over-the-top pizazz the right spots too, and I'm not sure there's a better spot in town for what's being proposed here (as long as we get better public transport).
 
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RC8:



I found the assertion of having a casino 2, 3 blocks down the street will lead to Cityplace (which is a mediocre neigbhourhood IMO) becoming a bedroom community for those looking for action is unconvincing. Undesirable land use has never stopped those who wanted to raise family in the core to do so - they went in with open eyes. Segregating these "negative" externalities and pandering to the large sector of the population that demands insulation from such - which is exactly what the suburbs is about - is desirable, knowing the sustainability imperative?



One is in downtown - regular middle class families will eventually be priced out of the area regardless of whether there is a casino or not.



That argument is also unconvincing - there are many rapidly densifying cities around the world, people adapt - just as they did in Toronto, raising families in highrises when it would have been an unthinkable 20, 30, 40 years ago.



And if what you have said is true - that desirability wouldn't have driven prices up such that it is out of range of regular families?

AoD

+1

This is the most nonsensical argument against a casino in the convention centre I've heard. It's probably the LEAST disruptive of the possible sites, Ex included.
 
As AoD mentioned above, the MTCC and the Royal Bank data building are better representations of these 1950s planning decisions you spoke of.

I'll reiterate once more. I was speaking of the ATTITUDES of planners in the 1950s, not of built form. Two different things, especially when taking into consideration that the MTCC is mixed-use and was opened in 1984.

The reckless abandon of 1950s planners lives on once more in boomtown Toronto, ca. 2013.
 
That lobby beneath the twin towers is so beautiful.

I am so speechless right now. I think I'm gonna have my lunch break around Front/Simcoe so I can admire what can be.

+1! Imagine enjoying a coffee while gazing up at the CN tower through those skylights! incredible!

these renders released today completely changed how I viewed this project! although I'm still not 100% sold on the twin towers, everything else looks spectacular. (perhaps the twins might look better if different heights or spaced apart a bit more, or adding skybridges or something). I actually think there is room for 1 more tower in between the twins and the Casino towers (of shorter height, to fill in the gap)

The Casino looks amazing by the podium.

We still need some renders of the towers though, both the Offices and Residential!
 
Remember, it's very early on in the game. I'd take those renderings with a grain of salt; remember, as far as the public is concerned, they are essentially marketing pieces. So of course they are made to look as flashy as possible.

We need to evaluate the merits of this project based on the scheme presented and its pros and cons. Good architecture is to be demanded no matter what scheme we decide on.
 
Agreed with SP!RE regarding the bling factor as seen in the renderings so far: it's all just a lure at this point.

That said, if you haven't seen the front page story yet, there are some pixel-for-pexel detail images in it that will allow you to glean a little more visual information from them than you may have so far.

All of these images indicate the direction that Oxford and Foster are going with this project, more than they are promises of what the final result might be.

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