Toronto Union Park | 303.26m | 58s | Oxford Properties | Pelli Clarke Pelli

[000]

Unless they expect people to walk from Bremner this site is going to need a very large bus passenger drop-off / pick-up area. People would be getting off the Gardiner at Rees St. Casino is on the north west side. A new road should be constructed connecting Bremner to Blu Jays Way.

 

[Grimace]

^^No I would think that with the new Gardiner off-ramp coming down at Simcoe, casino goers will take Simcoe. The current entrance to MTCC parking is on Simcoe south of Bremner (under Roundhouse), I would expect them to keep that. Would be great if they could force the buses underground too.

As for comparisons to Millennium Park, the comparisons were structural, not to the size. At 5.5 acres it would be about the size of Madison Square Park, for example, and quite a bit bigger than Sherbourne Common, for another example. Hardly a waste of time.

 

[000]

Oh sorry I thought it was Rees. There should definitely a drop off point in front of the Casino, if buses are coming down Simcoe the casino should be at Simcoe, otherwise it's a very long walk through the office buildings and through the green/mall to get to Blu Jays Way, especially for seniors without rascal scooters.

 

[Automation Gallery]

He never said it wasn't. He was just pointing out that our park won't be remotely close to the size of Millenium Park.

Yeah, but who is to say that one day they dont continue the same proccess, east and west of this location....Sections of the rail corridor from Bathurst to Jarvis one day could be covered with parkland.

 

[someMidTowner]

Has GO had anything to say about this re: signal visibility?

 

[Grimace]

Oh sorry I thought it was Rees. There should definitely a drop off point in front of the Casino, if buses are coming down Simcoe the casino should be at Simcoe, otherwise it's a very long walk through the office buildings and through the green/mall to get to Blu Jays Way, especially for seniors without rascal scooters.

What I was saying was that it would be best if the bus drop-off could be underground, it would not have to be way over on Simcoe if they forced the buses underground. A bus drop off on Front or Blue Jays Way would be a mess.

 

[MetroMan]

What Grimace said.

As for comparisons to Millennium Park, the comparisons were structural, not to the size.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

re: Comparison w/ Millennium Park

If you look at the urban structure of the area surrounding Millennium Park, vs. the proposed rail corridor decking for this project, you can see that the impact is likely FAR greater in Toronto. For all intents and purposes, MP is situated in a context of park space, which as great as it is, isn't dividing any significant urban fabric like the rail corridor does (high intensity uses like the MTCC, Skydome and the future complex). This project will help to stitch the N/S link in one of the key areas of the city and may very well even help to bring the waterfront closer to the core, psychologically speaking. Sometimes it isn't just size that matters.

AoD

 

[000]

What I was saying was that it would be best if the bus drop-off could be underground, it would not have to be way over on Simcoe if they forced the buses underground. A bus drop off on Front or Blue Jays Way would be a mess.

OK I agree with that, an underground road that ends by an entrance at Front/Blu Jays Way would work just as well

 

[MetroMan]

Alvin, I agree. The rail corridor has always been more of an obstacle to the waterfront than the Gardiner. They both are, but the Gardiner itself wasn't the barrier. The barren buffer zone around it was. This has begun to be fixed by condos and other developments hugging the Gardiner on both sides. By bringing putting a park like this one right by Front St, the waterfront district starts within steps of the busy King St. W/Entertainment District. From there, it's pretty much a pleasant walk down John, Peter or Simcoe.

 

[MisterF]

Although people use examples of other big Canadian cities with casinos as comparison, and none (or very few?) of those are located "downtown".

Look outside of Canada. Look outside of North America even. It's a big world out there and there are plenty of casinos in downtown cores.

 

[11th]

Look outside of Canada. Look outside of North America even. It's a big world out there and there are plenty of casinos in downtown cores.

Are you suggesting anything (not just casino locations), that works in other parts of the world will work in Toronto (or Canada)? If you are doing a comparison, it makes sense to compare cities with similar demographics, economies, etc. ; so of course people will use Canadian or North American cities as comparisons.

 

[000]

Ok.. resource rich state with healthy democracy and temperate climate - Norway. They have horse betting, slots & state lottery but no casinos. Gambling is a government monopoly and all winnings are taxed.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Seems like this trend has turned into the Toronto Casino Debate 2012, almost feels like I'm going OT here...

Has GO had anything to say about this re: signal visibility?

No and I wouldn't expect them to say anything publicly, especially at such a preliminary stage.
However, as someone who actually operates trains in this area, I can personally tell you that I would not have a problem seeing any signals in this area(and lest we forget signals are for crews operating trains) due to such a bridge structure because, and if memory serves me correctly I may have mentioned this before, they're essentially all on the ground.

However, signal sightlines, which was a problem with the city place bridge are not an issue here as all signals in this area are low mast/pot lights - i.e. placed on ground level and not on elevated signal masts(save for 2 on the blue jays way bridge structure which can be easily relocated on the ground below). Speeds are restricted to 15mph in this zone, which is why sight line requirements are far less stringent.

Again just to note; I don't see signal sight lines as being an issue in this section of the corridor because the section is almost entirely controlled by ground level signals and speeds are restricted to 15mph(25kph), unlike the section by the CP bridge which has signals placed on mast structures above the track with trains operating at 60mph(100kph). There will however need to be sufficient clearance for the planned future electrification of the corridor. But I believe the current height of the bridges at Blue Jays way and John st are sufficient, so the park would be at the same level which only makes sense in the first place.

So, are any more questions about signal sight line issues here?
...
Good, now carry on.

 

[RC8]

Sure. London, Berlin, New York, Montreal.

There was all kinds of nightlife in all of the neighbourhoods where I lived in Berlin. Sure, it wasn't the "club district" equivalent, which I guess would be the Warschauer Strasse area, but there were all kinds of night spots open considerably later than any in Toronto. They were all very popular and attractive neighbourhoods. My neighbourhood in New York, by contrast, was peaceful and quiet and residential (though very high density) with no nightlife in sight. I can assure you that my rent was a hell of a lot lower than it would have been in the Meatpacking District or Lower East Side, areas that are packed with nightlife. I think a lot of these attitudes are relics of the 1950s/60s ideals of separation of use, as if any commercial (let alone industrial!) presence near a residential neighbourhood would corrupt the children and generally make it a horrible place to live. I just don't really buy it. Mixed use neighbourhoods are great places to live for people who understand what they're getting themselves into. If they really do want silence in the evenings, there are all kinds of lovely neighbourhoods to choose from.

I understand what you're saying, but isn't there some validity to the point that the clubs were there first? Going by myself and my neighbours, I really believe that most people moved into that neighbourhood because they actually like activity and nightlife.

As an aside, I've always found the baseball fans leaving the SkyDome to be just as loud, if not louder, than the clubbers. In fact, I find the biggest noise problem with the clubbers to be horn honking. That could easily be resolved with a no-honking ordinance after, say, 10pm. They have them all over New York and Europe.


The Millennium Park model would be incredibly exciting. I wish that this park could be developed in a similar way. For anybody unfamiliar, what happened in Chicago was that the City wanted to build a parking garage and deck over the rail corridor. The city would build a fairly basic green space, while private donations would be sought for a more elaborate improvement. They were able to raise so much in private donations that they were able to include Cloud Gate and the Gehry bandshell and everything else. The park space should be given over to a charitable foundation with the goal of emulating the Millennium Park model.

It's not noise that bothers me, but the hostile attitude many people from the suburbs in this particular city have on very particular streets. I don't disagree with mixed-use neighbourhoods and I don't disagree with nightlife downstairs. The Fox and Fiddle at Cityplace is amazing for example (I never go there but I pass by it every day) - since it's mostly locals or friends of locals everyone is respectful of everyone else.

I know many girls with jobs in the entertainment district (who walk or bike home) who are genuinely concerned about their safety walking alone at night on weekends. Just last month a friend of mine who was working a late weekend shift got the scare of her life as some drunk guy shattered her shop's window/glass! I believe that if we spread out the madness and build a city worth visiting but with neighbourhoods for the locals (instead of combining everything into one area) we can still receive thousands of visitors from the 905 while maintaining jobs and neighbourhoods where residents of both sexes feel safe at all times.

Wellington north-west of the Flatiron building is a fantastic example of nightlife where people have fun without the hostility I mention. That whole area in general handles the crowds very nicely.