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Toronto - The Capital of Poverty

One thing that I think could be potentially scary is that poverty and city size may have an inter-relationship. Even in societies that have the most material wealth like the US or strong social programs like France, grinding poverty is a reality in their largest cities. Pick any large city-region regardless of the political or economic scenerio and this is true. Off the top of my head the only large city I would not associate with this phenomenon is Tokyo but then this is an uneducated opinion because I don't really know how the population in that city would fair if scrutinized under for instance the poverty study in question.
 
Throw out your textbooks because frankly I believe none of you have a clue what causes poverty. How many "poor" people do you actually know?

I know thousands of them. Living pay cheque to pay cheque owing thousands to payday loan companies, banks, credit cards....

Poverty has existed since the Old Testament and will continue existing. Rich people need poor people and vice versa the cycle continues....

The Toronto Star is merely taking advantage of the "holiday season" and its middle class suburban readership to persuade them to give more money to the United Way--a total scam of an operation. Advertorial drivel imho!

Rants and raving political ideologies, statistical analysis and scientific approaches will never solve poverty; it may make you smug and feel like you are "giving" but it doesn't work on the street. Having been poor before I know the devastating effects poverty can have on the pysche. Essentially the answer lies in education--my solution: every upper middle class family should--by law--pay for the education of a "poor" person. But it ain't gonna happen because they need poor people to survive.

The fact there is much more rental stock in Toronto (old burbs included) vs. suburbs is a huge part of the draw. Many outsiders who move to Toronto aren't aware most good jobs (easily attainable is what I mean--warehouse jobs, factory jobs paying a decent $15-$25/hour) are found in the outer suburbs, in K-W and beyond. So you work at Tim Horton's on Bay St, live in East York and commute by TTC. Most of the thousands of poor people I know are shocked when I tell them the truth about the labour market: the thousands of construction jobs available for example. Without an internet connection, decent English skills, and perhaps a brain (harsh I know) people are helpless to get ahead.

Anyway Mr. STAT and POLI man, show me your network of poor friends and real world experience.

Thanks.
 
"Throw out your textbooks because frankly I believe none of you have a clue what causes poverty. How many "poor" people do you actually know?

I know thousands of them. Living pay cheque to pay cheque owing thousands to payday loan companies, banks, credit cards...."

I actually agree with several of your other points but isn't this a bit presumptous? Universal free post-secondary education would have almost no impact on poverty rates in my opinion. Now for me to have such an opinion is it really necessary to personally have street cred on poverty? By the study definition I would be considered a kid who grew up in poverty. Why? Because their definition of poverty is crudely defined based on annual income where as my parents owned their own small business and hence only drew a minimal salary as needed to maintain the household. Being immigrants we were very careful with our money and hence our standard of living was at least as high as the carefree wasteful anglo-protestant people in our middle-class neighbourhood.
 
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Spinning the poverty numbers — again and again
COLBY COSHNational Post colbycosh@gmail.com
You’ve probably already forgotten about the two new year-end poverty reports issued this week by the United Way of Toronto and Campaign 2000. The annual announcements of social welfare agencies always present the same tale of stasis and frustration, no matter what the overall economy has been like lately, where the measurements are being taken or what governments are in power. If social agencies had set out decades ago to consciously make the public more apathetic to genuine poverty, or to convince it that poverty is inherently intractable, they could not possibly have gone about it more effectively.

Readers of this newspaper must be almost as bored with the usual dissections of the “poverty†numbers in these reports as they are with the reports themselves, but to paraphrase E.B. White, babies are being born every day who have never heard the old story, so it must be told over and over again. Campaign 2000’s report uses Statistics Canada’s Low Income CutOff (LICO) to measure child and family poverty. Here is what Statistics Canada says, every year, about using the LICO to measure poverty: The LICO is not a poverty measure, and we wish everyone would please stop using it as one. Their pleas go unheard.

The LICO is defined as the estimated income level at which a typical household would spend 20 percentage points more than the average family on the basic necessities of life — food, shelter and clothing. In other words, it is solely a measure of relative affluence: If everyone’s income and standard of living is improving, but the “average family†is gaining faster, more “poverty†will be created — even though everyone is actually getting richer. This helps explain why, as of 2004, 62% of sub-LICO households had cable TV and 43% owned DVD players.

The current LICOs use an observed base of consumer spending patterns that is now quite antiquated, dating back to 1992. Because LICO cutoffs are adjusted for inflation according to the Consumer Price Index (CPI), they miss the same things that the CPI is not good at capturing — improvements, for instance, in the quality of and consumer choice in food and clothing. And they do little or nothing to reflect the growing participation of the poor in the underground economy.

Campaign 2000 mangles this inappropriate poverty measure still further in the handling. Throughout most of the report, it uses pre-tax LICO figures — again going directly counter to StatsCan advice (“Since the purchase of necessities is made with after-tax dollars, it is logical to use people’s after-tax income to draw conclusions about their overall economic well-beingâ€). The effect is to add about five percentage points to the national totals of children living under the LICO, estimated in 2005 as 11.7% after taxes and transfers and 16.8% before. Is it really fair to call for governments to do more to cut poverty when your report has mostly factored out the effects of government wealth redistribution?

The United Way’s Losing Ground report uses an even more informal and loose definition of overall “poverty,†namely, the Low Income Measure (LIM), which kicks in at 50% of the median family income adjusted for family size and geographic location. Again, any relative improvement for the median family by this measure will create more “poor†even if everybody on the scale is doing better every year. And it should be noted — especially with regard to Toronto — that a country or a region welcoming in many poor immigrants will pull its LICO and LIM lines downward, even if no existing household’s welfare has changed and the immigrants are vastly better off for their arrival. It’s a funny sort of measurement, one would think, that punishes Canada’s supreme city for what might be its single most important contribution to human contentment.

Despite its use or abuse of the LIM, the United Way report may be the more useful of the two because of the detail it offers about other, more objective social indicators. Median household incomes themselves, after all, are noteworthy, and over the past five years they have appeared to stagnate in Toronto while enjoying marked growth in Canada as a whole and the rest of Ontario.

Meanwhile, Losing Ground highlights alarming, nationally uniform growth in the fraction of families with minor children headed by a single parent — a social indicator that welfare reforms in the United States have succeeded in changing for the better in recent years. From 1990 to 2005, single-parent families increased from 21.4% of all families in Canada to 25.5%. In Toronto, the figure jumped from 24% to 30.4%. On neither scale does it shows any recent signs of slowing. Anything our policymakers do to “fight child poverty†while such a major cause of it spreads unchecked is likely to represent wasted energy in the long run.
 
Poverty has existed since the Old Testament and will continue existing. Rich people need poor people and vice versa the cycle continues....

true the world is shaped in a way that prosperity for one means misery for another...

An idealist would have great trouble with that...A realist would find it troubling but see it as a hard truth.

I am trying to justify poverty?? No...

However its something we can reduce but not eliminate... unless we become a Commune...
 
Why would somone move away from the very expensive downtown core? Why would somone move away from a region where - because of obscene housing costs (especially if you need something more than a 2 bedroom home) - you can't but help but devote a 'disproportionate' share of your income to housing?
OH! I GET IT! Several million people can't afford to live downtown! That's why people commute! Ah! I see: LICO pretty much assures that if you are raising a family in Toronto, you better do it outside of downtown, or - alternatively- live in poverty (determined under LICO).
 
If we truly want to make poverty, we need to improve transit so that people who cannot afford to live downtown - but, for various reasons, do- can move out to where housing costs are less, thus reducing poverty.
As they would pay less for housing, the LICO stats would improve and they would no longer be poor.
We need to address the cost of raising a family down OR recognize that it's a non- starter in either case, we need to plan accordingly.
 
why not reduce business taxes.

Lower taxes means more jobs and if you have a good job it means your likely you wont be poor...
 
If we follow the well-aired argument that the United States has lower taxes than Canada, then someone must explain why poverty persists in the United States.
 
If we follow the well-aired argument that the United States has lower taxes than Canada, then someone must explain why poverty persists in the United States.


The argument has been what has changed that during the time in question to cause an increase in poverty in Toronto but not elsewhere.


http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/281538

LETTER TO THE EDITOR
TheStar.com | comment | Vicious circle of rising taxes, poverty

Vicious circle of rising taxes, poverty
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Dec 02, 2007 04:30 AM


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Premier targets city poverty

Nov. 27



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I am poor and disabled and I live in Toronto.

I wonder if the fact that almost 30 per cent of Toronto families live in poverty has something to do with the City of Toronto's high level of business taxes.

I look for work, and in some cases, Toronto business owners tell me the business taxes they have to pay are equal to the rent on their store.

So it's a vicious circle.

The City of Toronto raises business taxes, then the businesses have to charge more. The owners have less to pay in wages, and in turn fewer people can then afford to buy what the businesses have to sell.

Within one city block during the last six months, we have lost a video store, two small furniture stores and a restaurant. There are no business taxes coming from them any more.

Now the City of Toronto has to raise business taxes even more on the remaining businesses.

Yet city politicians say that cutting business taxes would be wrong, because that would cause more poverty.

Why does the City of Toronto have both the highest business taxes and the highest level of poverty?

Why do city politicians say that cutting taxes would cause more poverty, when the evidence seems to suggest the reverse is true?



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John A. Matheson, Toronto
 
If we follow the well-aired argument that the United States has lower taxes than Canada, then someone must explain why poverty persists in the United States.

Wonder what the poverty rate is viz. Canada- when measuring using same yard sticks (and see what happens when different measurements are used LICO etc.)
 
The argument has been what has changed that during the time in question to cause an increase in poverty in Toronto but not elsewhere.

Nothing wrong with cutting business taxes in a reasonable and responsible manner; just don't expect it to make poverty go away in this city. It won't.

The argument, at best, represents a very weak correlation and nothing more. Remember that Toronto is the destination for a huge number of immigrants - many of whom certainly don't arrive here with any great wealth. So right from the get-go, the route cause of poverty is a little more complicated than just business taxes.

Besides, what's to say that business owners won't pocket their potential tax savings? There is no requirement that states anyone must hire a person or pay more in wages as a result of a tax cut.

Cutting business taxes will benefit businesses and business owners, and may even allow for the hiring of other employees. But these new employees may never have been in poverty in the first place.
 
If we want to tackle poverty, we need to increase good public transit from areas of the cities with affordable housing to the downtown core.

I think it's time to stop the war on the poor - who cannot afford to live downtown- especially if they are trying to raise a family. This' everyone must live downtown attitude is, I think, not based on ignorance, but on hatred- hatred of the poor, hatred of those who cannot afford the extra costs of downtown, hatred of those who are raising a family, hated of those who try to make reasonable financial decisions. Let's stop the hatred, but instead, build the subway out to 905 and get going on Transit City (which, by and large, is very realistic- epically were it uses hydro rights of way. All sorts of 'on time, on budget, built between elections, and not 'non-starter' priced" that is to say, it's political and electorally realistic.)
 
Nothing wrong with cutting business taxes in a reasonable and responsible manner; just don't expect it to make poverty go away in this city. It won't.

I have never said that it is the sole cause of poverty. What I have said repeatedly is that there has been a change in the rates of poverty in Toronto compared to everywhere else. And that the reason is directly related to jobs and the factors that effect their creation. Namely property tax.

The argument, at best, represents a very weak correlation and nothing more. Remember that Toronto is the destination for a huge number of immigrants - many of whom certainly don't arrive here with any great wealth. So right from the get-go, the route cause of poverty is a little more complicated than just business taxdes.

The Toronto area yes. Toronto proper, no.

Toronto now attracts only a fraction of the number of immigrants as it did before. Far less than the surrounding 905 region. So any negative impact on poverty rates via immigration patterns should be improving. They are not. I don't believe for a second that Toronto has a very unique demographic if immigrant that is unable to find work as opposed to those whom settle in the 905 region. I think that almost all immigrants are very hard working and will work in any capacity they can given the chance.



Besides, what's to say that business owners won't pocket their potential tax savings? There is no requirement that states anyone must hire a person or pay more in wages as a result of a tax cut.

Cutting business taxes will benefit businesses and business owners, and may even allow for the hiring of other employees. But these new employees may never have been in poverty in the first place.

It is not about pocketing the money. It is about the attractiveness to invest in employment areas and the very viability of existing ones. Looking at the Hemson reports it shows just how this works. One of the comparisons in the report is that of constructing a new office building in Toronto compared to Mississauga. Even though the land cost 55% more in Mississauga (which in itself is indicative of fundamental problems) it is economically unfeasible to build such a office in Toronto while it is in Mississauga. Also it shows that even though Toronto commercial property tax rate is 59% higher, by means of devaluing the assessment, the city only generates 2% more tax revenue. All the while it misses out on the development and other charges which net the city a lot of revenue.


It should also be noted that a tax cut would not directly translate into a tax reduction. Seeing that Toronto non residential properties have the the higher tax rates capitalized into values, a reduction in rates would trigger an increase in value. Besides the example in the Hemson report, this is demonstrated by the much smaller appreciation of values in Toronto compared to the 905 region.
 

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