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Toronto - The Capital of Poverty

Glen:

That's just silly - considering the multitude of variables such as availablity of cheaper rental housing stock, social housing, historical settlement patterns, demographics, etc. Have you controlled for all these differences? No. Was the UWGT report's analysis about controlling these variables? No. Rather homogenous region? On what basis and criteria do you base that judgement on, exactly?

Yes I did look into those factors. Would you care to inform me about what has changed during the time frame in question that would adversely effect Toronto but not its immediate neighbors? Before parroting the Toronto Star's 'Toronto is a magnet for new immigrants' look at the statistics. It is simply not true anymore. In fact the 905 area attracts far more.


Honestly, you should take a few courses in research design and data analysis before yabbering about causal relationships and how each and every little bit of statistics "proves" your point.

AoD

This is the second time you have questioned my research. In the other case I supplied you links to Municipal data, which you seemed unable to respond to. In all honesty, being mildly dyslexic makes me vigilant in fact checking. While I do present a simplistic cause, it is really the only pathognomonic factor here. The other factors you mentioned have been relatively static and do nothing to explain the different trajectories of Toronto and its immediate neighbours. I will put aside the principles of parsimony for now, and let you offer your own explanation for the differences demonstrated.

Leave aside the red herrings like our Mayor, whom seemingly ignores the fact that this is the economic region for EI purposes.


PS. I would serve you well not to judge the the abilities of those you know little about.
 
I actually think discussion about poverty is interesting both from the perspective of what can be done and the posturing of interest groups with their own agendas.

What is poverty and is there anything that can be done about it?

These types of reports tend to measure poverty with respect to moving averages or medians, so the issue is more about income disparity than poverty in terms of absolute conditions. Both issues are important but different in my opinion

On thing I have learned anecdotally from my own experiences is that the world of real people seems to be somewhat removed from that portrayed in statistics and government policy. People defined as living in poverty range from destitute to those owning their own business and having considerable material wealth. Many, particularly in immigrant groups essentially live in a parallel economic systems that do not really intersect with the vectors like a reported income sent to Revenue Canada. Standard of living has a lot to do with relationships with family and friends as well. People who are isolated both from family and a network of friends are in grave danger of destitution even if they work or collect government money.

So anyways I guess my point is that we can define poverty in some way, make targets and feel all good or terrible about how well we are doing against such performance measures but ultimately what matters is how much it is really changing the standard of living of people on the ground.
 
Yes I did look into those factors. Would you care to inform me about what has changed during the time frame in question that would adversely effect Toronto but not its immediate neighbors? Before parroting the Toronto Star's 'Toronto is a magnet for new immigrants' look at the statistics. It is simply not true anymore. In fact the 905 area attracts far more.

New immigrants and their economic capacity is certainly a potential factor. Would you mind enlightening me what is the income and/or personal wealth of the average immigrant in the 416, vs. the 905. Or on that matter, whether they are property owners, their employment status (both in terms of full-time/part-time status) as well as UI/EI use? On top of that, do you know the economic status of out-migrants from the city? If you don't even know these stats (which would point to the potential of segregation effects at work), how can you make the assertion that these things have no effect? The number of immigrants (net and gross) by itself is meaningless without more information to put them into context. And immigration is just ONE field of variables.

This is the second time you have questioned my research. In the other case I supplied you links to Municipal data, which you seemed unable to respond to. In all honesty, being mildly dyslexic makes me vigilant in fact checking. While I do present a simplistic cause, it is really the only pathognomonic factor here.

Unwilling to respond because unlike you, I am not going to just make a simple division of transfers by population and conclude that individuals in one jurisdiction is favoured, without understanding the more detailed socioeconomic background (e.g. more individuals with needs = more funding for per diem social and health services) of each jurisdiction, just for starters. To ignore these effects is sloppy research, period.

The fact that you have dyslexia or not should have no bearing in this debate. In fact, I find it mildly curious that you should raise this issue.

The other factors you mentioned have been relatively static and do nothing to explain the different trajectories of Toronto and its immediate neighbours. I will put aside the principles of parsimony for now, and let you offer your own explanation for the differences demonstrated.

Then you will have to demostrate exactly how they're static, and how it doesn't affects everything else, leaving taxation levels to be the only variables affecting child poverty. I am not the one making the assertion that these variables haven't changed, you are.

PS. I would serve you well not to judge the the abilities of those you know little about.

Considering I work in a field that deals with data analysis (in the social sector, I might add), perhaps it would be wise for you to heed your own advice. I eagerly await your detailed explaination and accounting of all these variables.

AoD
 
New immigrants and their economic capacity is certainly a potential factor. Would you mind enlightening me what is the income and/or personal wealth of the average immigrant in the 416, vs. the 905. Or on that matter, whether they are property owners, their employment status (both in terms of full-time/part-time status) as well as UI/EI use? On top of that, do you know the economic status of out-migrants from the city? If you don't even know these stats (which would point to the potential of segregation effects at work), how can you make the assertion that these things have no effect? The number of immigrants (net and gross) by itself is meaningless without more information to put them into context. And immigration is just ONE field of variables.


sigh,

Of course factors like immigrant settlement plays a part, it was not over looked. In fact it adds to my arguments. In 1996 the City of Toronto absorbed 33.6% of net migration to Toronto and area. By 2006 it only absorbed 6.6%. The impact of this should have reflected positively on the figures. The reality is the opposite.


Unwilling to respond because unlike you, I am not going to just make a simple division of transfers by population and conclude that individuals in one jurisdiction is favoured, without understanding the more detailed socioeconomic background (e.g. more individuals with needs = more funding for per diem social and health services) of each jurisdiction, just for starters. To ignore these effects is sloppy research, period.

More unable to extrapolate than unwilling. Clinging to ideology will not change the facts. Funny how areas with more people working and more immigrants would need less daycare and ESL services, etc.

The fact that you have dyslexia or not should have no bearing in this debate. In fact, I find it mildly curious that you should raise this issue.

To satisfy for curiosity I will off you the following; I am prone to making errors due to simple transpositions. As such it has made me diligent. and offered other advantages. Of which expediency is not one of them. The fact that you missed the point, even though explained, raises the issue about your ability to comprehend.


Then you will have to demostrate exactly how they're static, and how it doesn't affects everything else, leaving taxation levels to be the only variables affecting child poverty. I am not the one making the assertion that these variables haven't changed, you are.

Perhaps static was not the best word. The factors that create poverty are not heterogeneous but the location is becoming more so. The conditions that influence them have not changed in a manner which would account for this other than the location of jobs.


Considering I work in a field that deals with data analysis (in the social sector, I might add), perhaps it would be wise for you to heed your own advice. I eagerly await your detailed explanation and accounting of all these variables.

AoD

cheaper rental housing stock : rents have moved proportionality through out the GTA


social housing: I will look up the stats, but IIRC they are proportionality the same

historical settlement patterns: current settlement patterns show a much larger increase in the 905 region.

demographics: interesting that you may be suggesting that Toronto only attracts poor people.



You must work for Toronto.
 
Of course factors like immigrant settlement plays a part, it was not over looked. In fact it adds to my arguments. In 1996 the City of Toronto absorbed 33.6% of net migration to Toronto and area. By 2006 it only absorbed 6.6%. The impact of this should have reflected positively on the figures. The reality is the opposite.

NET migration - not immigration, nor does it talk about the socioeconomic status of the migrants and immigrants. What happens if you have individuals who are relatively well off moving out of the city, while the influx of people (be it migrants OR immigrants) are relatively poor? Do you know whether this is the scenario or not? There is no "should" - you either don't know or you're guessing.

More unable to extrapolate than unwilling. Clinging to ideology will not change the facts. Funny how areas with more people working and more immigrants would need less daycare and ESL services, etc.

You don't extrapolate to facts - you take the facts, and where possible offering a host of qualifiers for that extrapolation. Do you know what are the skills and language abilities of the new immigrants to the city, vs. the periphery? Do you know what percentage of those living in the city requires subsidized daycare, which is an indicator of economic status? You don't.

To satisfy for curiosity I will off you the following; I am prone to making errors due to simple transpositions. As such it has made me diligent. and offered other advantages. Of which expediency is not one of them. The fact that you missed the point, even though explained, raises the issue about your ability to comprehend.

Consider the immigration argument and the amount of holes I can poke at it, you are not in a postion to talk about diligence in your research. I will ignore the ad hominem attack.

Perhaps static was not the best word. The factors that create poverty are not heterogeneous but the location is becoming more so. The conditions that influence them have not changed in a manner which would account for this other than the location of jobs.

Factors creating poverty are NOT heterogenous? And poverty is by default a function of the amount of jobs within an arbitary politcal boundary? What about labour mobility? And where is the data analysis to substantiate this claim that the other conditions have not changed (what are those conditions? by how much?) in a manner (what is the manner?) that would account for (what are the pathways?) than the location of jobs?

cheaper rental housing stock : rents have moved proportionality through out the GTA

Really, in terms of the housing stock available that is of the low rent bracket? Do you know?

social housing: I will look up the stats, but IIRC they are proportionality the same

I know what the figures are, but I will let you do your own research.

historical settlement patterns: current settlement patterns show a much larger increase in the 905 region.

Larger increase in what? Socioeconomically well off migrants? Socioeconomically less well off? Do you know?

demographics: interesting that you may be suggesting that Toronto only attracts poor people.

I am not suggesting what is or isn't - I am saying what could potentially be the causes. I am also saying that one could be seeing a polarization effect at work. But unlike you, I am hypothesizing, and not willing to come to a conclusion without the facts in my hands.

You must work for Toronto.

When in doubt, use ad hominem?

AoD
 
Glen

The issue here is indeed dogmatism and ideology colouring one's views.

I don't know AoD on a personal level, but I have not seen in his posts a blantent endorsement of one party or politician, nor an un-abashed assailment of one either.

Whereas, you clearly do have a political axe to grind.

The issue is not the divinity of David Miller, or of the political centre or left.

Nor is it the same in respect of the divinity or hellishness of MR.Miller's opponents, or the political right.

The fact is that poverty, and homelessness are widespread throughout Canada, and Ontario (and much of the world) under regimes of varying ideology.

Anyone will admit, including those of the more conservative persuasion, that the most socialist regime tends to reduce absolute poverty, though, equally it tends to lower the living standard of the middle class, at least at the margins.

But there are conservative minded jurisidictions with lower poverty, and socialistic minded ones with more, and vice versa.

In respect of Mr. Miller there is no single policy you could point to, I feel certain, that has had a material impact on the rate of poverty inside the 416.

That doesn't mean he's perfect, nor does it mean someone else might not do better. But it does mean there is no rational grounds to suggest that a disparity between the 416 and 905 should be layed at his feet.

****

While all the reasons for any disparity can never be known, given that this is a complex and multi-faceted issue......

One can draw some obvious conclusions.

1) Housing costs are much higher in the 416 than in the 905. They have also risen faster in the 416 than the 905. (seen any $8,000,000 condos out there lately?)

Because poverty is measured in Canada based on the percentage of income one spends on food and housing it can be reasonably assumed, all other things being equal, that those in more expensive to live places will experience greater nominal poverty.

2) Why do poor people locate where they do? Its an entirely reasonable and relatively easy to answer question.

If you have little or no money, a minimum wage or no job at all, where would you want to locate?

Probably a place with higher levels of social services. Toronto (416) provides some low-income dental care, it provides vastly more shelter beds, proportionately more social housing, and more subsidized child care than the 905.

The statitics are all public and varifiable.

So, one might imagine, that living in say, Richmond Hill, if you need a bed that night, or child care for a young child, you might relocate south to where you have a much better chance of getting those services.

**

Also of note, is that low-income people are vastly less likely to own a car.

Ergo, the level of transit service available is a critical decision making factor in choosing where to live.

For all the gripes about the TTC ( many of them quite right, I might add), its service is, at its worst, an order of magnitude better than that of 905.

3) Consider the language barrier.

To be sure, many people of various backgrounds and ethnicities choose to live in the 905, as often, or more often than in the 416.

But, many refugees lack familial ties, lack access to a car, and are more likely to find an enclave in the older city which speaks exclusively or predmominently their own tongue.

4) Jobs

Yes lets go there again. Because the unemployment rate is not materially higher in 416 than 905. There is a marginal difference. But it hardly begins to account for the poverty rate differential.

So why is that?

I'm sure you could, and would argue its all about some of the high-paying jobs that have migrated to 905 over the last 20 years (a trend that well predates the current mayor).

Perhaps it has had some impact.

Though given the current mayor has proposed to effectively halve business tax rates by 2017.... I'm not sure it makes sense to lay that at his feet.

He inherited a regime in which Toronto residents pay much lower property tax than their 905 cousins. But Toronto businesses pay more.

This is 1/2 municipal and 1/2 provincial (eduation property tax is provincially determined). There to, it should be said, in the last Provinical budget a committment was made to eliminate that disparity in 416/905 over the next 7 years by then Finance Minister Sorbara.

BUT, since the unemployment rates are not far apart, its difficult to suggest this is the primary cause of any disparity.

Surely, a well-off, well-educated person in Toronto, capable of holding a high-tech job in Markham, can and will commute.

They won't be impoverished because the factory or head office relocated, a few KM north....or west etc.

***

Instead one can attribute the difference this way. A person working at McDonald's in Brampton makes $16,000 per year, so does one in Toronto.

Both pay similar food and utlitity costs.

However, in Brampton a basement apartment might range from $450.00 to $750.00 per month.

The same apartment in Toronto would range from $750.00 to $1,000 per month.

The difference is up to $3,000+ in after tax expenses.

At the same time:

The minimum wage in Toronto is identical to that in Brampton.

The social assitance rate in Toronto is the same as in Brampton

The tax brackets are the same in Toronto and in Brampton.

The costs are the difference.

That is hardly the fault of the current Mayor.

***********

There are many things for which the current mayor and council might be faulted....I'm happy to list them in another thread.

Just don't lay something that has little or nothing to do with the Mayor at his feet.

And don't do a dis-service to an important issue by shrugging off the details in favour of a neat idea that fits with a pre-determined ideological bias.
And which serves no one, least of all the poor, well.
 
from a philosophical point of view, capitalism/industrialism is a giant pyramid scheme that needs ever increasing populations in order to feed the pyramid. As the population of the pyramid grows, the proportion located at the bottom grows at a much faster rate. Thats why western countries like Canada need to lure qualified people from third world countries and then once they are here, they pull the rug out from under them and force them to take jobs as taxi drivers. Also it is why France is paying its citizens $10 thousand for each child they have now. Its all a numbers game. Capitalism/industrialism is not meant to be 100% employment... without the motivating factor of sink or swim it doesnt work. Hopefully we will embrace another system within my lifetime.

realistically I think Tricky Ricky has it right... some really good observations there.
 
Northern Lights:

I don't know AoD on a personal level, but I have not seen in his posts a blantent endorsement of one party or politician, nor an un-abashed assailment of one either.

I have my moments!

TrickyRicky:

So anyways I guess my point is that we can define poverty in some way, make targets and feel all good or terrible about how well we are doing against such performance measures but ultimately what matters is how much it is really changing the standard of living of people on the ground

How much it changes the standard of living...which will still mean some sort of measure, likely quantitative given our positivist approach to public policy, plus the need for accountability - i.e. show me the numbers. Unfortunately - you are right - there is more to poverty than simple income issues (just think of the amount of mental health problems such as stress, depression, etc. that can stem from being in poverty). Not much QoL there.

AoD
 
Glen,
You are absolutely correct. It is absolutely entirely the fault of our city council that we are in this situation. After all, it is not like there are other cities going through the exact same situation. It is not like the cities of Montreal or Vancouver (the world's most liveable city after all!) have higher poverty rates than us. This is a problem completely unique to the city of Toronto and thus the fault here lies squarely on the shoulders of our city council. Period.


Oh, wait. Absolutely nothing I just said was true. Shit.

The rising poverty in post-ww2 suburbs is a trend throughout the western world, not just Toronto. Simply lowering our property tax rate isn't going to solve this problem (though I'm sure you'll be glad to know that the city is currently in the middle of a 15 year plan to significantly lower the commercial and industrial tax burden in the city- a plan initiated by Miller, of all people). Lower tax rates don't solve the issue of lack of land that has driven industry to the suburbs, it does little to mitigate the high cost of redeveloping current land, and it does absolutely nothing to supress the high wages that have caused manufacturers to off-shore (though even if it did, this would hardly be desirable). It is naive to believe that these people wouldn't be in poverty if we simply had a different city council. They are poor because, either due to them being unable get their skills recognized or the fact that they simply have no credentials, they cannot find decent paying work anywhere. Anyways, I could go on rambling but I'm getting bored. Whatever.
 
While all the reasons for any disparity can never be known, given that this is a complex and multi-faceted issue......

One can draw some obvious conclusions.

1) Housing costs are much higher in the 416 than in the 905. They have also risen faster in the 416 than the 905. (seen any $8,000,000 condos out there lately?)


Because poverty is measured in Canada based on the percentage of income one spends on food and housing it can be reasonably assumed, all other things being equal, that those in more expensive to live places will experience greater nominal poverty.

2) Why do poor people locate where they do? Its an entirely reasonable and relatively easy to answer question.

If you have little or no money, a minimum wage or no job at all, where would you want to locate?

Probably a place with higher levels of social services. Toronto (416) provides some low-income dental care, it provides vastly more shelter beds, proportionately more social housing, and more subsidized child care than the 905.

The statitics are all public and varifiable.

So, one might imagine, that living in say, Richmond Hill, if you need a bed that night, or child care for a young child, you might relocate south to where you have a much better chance of getting those services.

**

Also of note, is that low-income people are vastly less likely to own a car.

Ergo, the level of transit service available is a critical decision making factor in choosing where to live.

For all the gripes about the TTC ( many of them quite right, I might add), its service is, at its worst, an order of magnitude better than that of 905.

3) Consider the language barrier.

To be sure, many people of various backgrounds and ethnicities choose to live in the 905, as often, or more often than in the 416.

But, many refugees lack familial ties, lack access to a car, and are more likely to find an enclave in the older city which speaks exclusively or predmominently their own tongue.

4) Jobs

Yes lets go there again. Because the unemployment rate is not materially higher in 416 than 905. There is a marginal difference. But it hardly begins to account for the poverty rate differential.

Thanks for posting your thoughts.

1) The subjects are nearly all renters not owners so the crucial factor is rent not cost of ownership. A quick search at www.rentersnews.ca shows more availability of units for less than 600 per month in Toronto than in neighbouring areas.

2) Some might want to move where there are jobs.

3)Yes Toronto does have proportionately more of the services you mentioned. It still does not change the fact that the ratio of its proportional advantage is the same or less than before.

4)Again that is a trend that is changing as more ethnic communities are moving out of the city and into the 905 areas.

5)Here we disagree. An unemployment rate that is 31% higher is material.




So why is that?

I'm sure you could, and would argue its all about some of the high-paying jobs that have migrated to 905 over the last 20 years (a trend that well predates the current mayor).

Perhaps it has had some impact.

Though given the current mayor has proposed to effectively halve business tax rates by 2017.... I'm not sure it makes sense to lay that at his feet.

He inherited a regime in which Toronto residents pay much lower property tax than their 905 cousins. But Toronto businesses pay more.

This is 1/2 municipal and 1/2 provincial (eduation property tax is provincially determined). There to, it should be said, in the last Provinical budget a committment was made to eliminate that disparity in 416/905 over the next 7 years by then Finance Minister Sorbara.

BUT, since the unemployment rates are not far apart, its difficult to suggest this is the primary cause of any disparity.

Surely, a well-off, well-educated person in Toronto, capable of holding a high-tech job in Markham, can and will commute.

They won't be impoverished because the factory or head office relocated, a few KM north....or west etc.

I never said that he created the situation, but he has perpetuated it. Seeing that he is our current mayor and he is on record as lamenting the city's inability to access the entire tax base, you will need to excuse my lack of support for him.

I am well aware of the ETBC program. In all honesty, it is designed to do as little as possible. It would be like your oncologist spreading out your chemotherapy over 5 years instead of three months.

The article and my position is not about the causes of poverty but as to the reasons why it is increasing in Toronto while decreasing in its neighbors. All the factors you have mentioned have been around for ages. The only thing that has really changed in the time involved has been the tax climate. I do agree that the minimum wage should be raised to at least $10 per hour. Furthermore I believe that no one should pay income tax on the $14,000 of income. What is getting lost here is that despite the good intentions of Toronto's social services there must be an objective to make the recipients self sufficient. That can only happen if they are able to find employment.
 
The rising poverty in post-ww2 suburbs is a trend throughout the western world, not just Toronto.



Read the article. It is stating the opposite is happening in Toronto.
 
Where are the statistics to back up your claims, Glen? Couldn't find them?

1) The subjects are nearly all renters not owners so the crucial factor is rent not cost of ownership. A quick search at www.rentersnews.ca shows more availability of units for less than 600 per month in Toronto than in neighbouring areas.

I didn't realize a cursory scan of Renters News constitute valid statistics. Not to mention, even assuming that the assertion there is a high availablity of lower rent housing stock in Toronto, wouldn't that means that potentially more poor families are likely to be accomodated in the city, which can also explain potentially explain the higher rate of child poverty?

2) Some might want to move where there are jobs.

How close or far would they move to said "jobs", exactly? How does the mobility of individuals play into it? What kinds of jobs? You don't know how these factors work.

3)Yes Toronto does have proportionately more of the services you mentioned. It still does not change the fact that the ratio of its proportional advantage is the same or less than before.

Do you know of the demographic changes that have occured in the meantime? What happens if you have a depopulation of middle class families due to increasing cost of single-detached home ownership, changes in the lifecycle of various communities, etc? How would that affects the income statistics? You don't know.

4) Again that is a trend that is changing as more ethnic communities are moving out of the city and into the 905 areas.

Again, do you know of the socioeconomic status of those members of the ethnic communities who are moving into the 905? No you don't. Perhaps you should think of scenarios - what happens if some of those members of ethnic communities, after having settled down in the city and gradually moves up the class ladder and gets to a point of being able to afford home ownership. Where do you think these individuals are more likely to be purchasing, given the availablity housing housing across the GTA? What effects would it have on income statistics in the core vs. the periphery?

5) Here we disagree. An unemployment rate that is 31% higher is material

Assuming that difference is material, what is the cause, exactly? Is it higher property taxes? Is it the higher number of individuals who are on income assistance or otherwise cannot work? Is it because the urban core tends to attract more individuals of this nature because the services (housing, community agencies, etc?) are more readily available? Is it a combination of all these factors and then a whole host of other ones? You don't know.

Read the article. It is stating the opposite is happening in Toronto.

And dear, what theman is referring to is the inner suburbs - which is Scarborough, Etobicoke and North York. The so called "U of poverty".

Like quite frankly, stop masquarading your opinions as facts and spinning and twisting what little facts you have for your own purposes.

AoD
 
I didn't realize a cursory scan of Renters News constitute valid statistics. Not to mention, even assuming that the assertion there is a high availablity of lower rent housing stock in Toronto, wouldn't that means that potentially more poor families are likely to be accomodated in the city, which can also explain potentially explain the higher rate of child poverty?

Since when has reality been inferior to statistics? And yes, the availability of cheaper rents could explain higher levels of poverty. What I have been arguing is that the report and my assertions are related to change. That reality has been static.


How close or far would they move to said "jobs", exactly? How does the mobility of individuals play into it? What kinds of jobs? You don't know how these factors work.

The response was directly related to the question "If you have little or no money, a minimum wage or no job at all, where would you want to locate?.



Do you know of the demographic changes that have occured in the meantime? What happens if you have a depopulation of middle class families due to increasing cost of single-detached home ownership, changes in the lifecycle of various communities, etc? How would that affects the income statistics? You don't know.

You make it seem that every neighborhood in Toronto is unique and in no way comparable to other surrounding ones. Here is a news flash, home prices went up outside of Toronto also. In fact real estate prices in many of the areas listed in the United Way report have not appreciated as much as the rest of the city or comparable units outside the city.



Again, do you know of the socioeconomic status of those members of the ethnic communities who are moving into the 905? No you don't. Perhaps you should think of scenarios - what happens if some of those members of ethnic communities, after having settled down in the city and gradually moves up the class ladder and gets to a point of being able to afford home ownership. Where do you think these individuals are more likely to be purchasing, given the availablity housing housing across the GTA? What effects would it have on income statistics in the core vs. the periphery?

You seem to be missing the point. Northern Light suggested that Toronto may be attractive for new immigrants because, "more likely to find an enclave in the older city which speaks exclusively or predominantly their own tongue". I responded that there are growing ethnic communities outside of Toronto and as a result that influence is less likely to be Toronto specific. While I don't dispute the factors you mentioned they existed before, why do they all of a sudden become relevant?


Assuming that difference is material, what is the cause, exactly? Is it higher property taxes? Is it the higher number of individuals who are on income assistance or otherwise cannot work? Is it because the urban core tends to attract more individuals of this nature because the services (housing, community agencies, etc?) are more readily available? Is it a combination of all these factors and then a whole host of other ones? You don't know.

Since we are discussing change, and know that all the the factors mentioned above existed prior except the tax inequalities, is that hard to fathom causation?


And dear, what theman is referring to is the inner suburbs - which is Scarborough, Etobicoke and North York. The so called "U of poverty".

And dear, are you able to read? Reconcile these two comments from theman23;

The rising poverty in post-ww2 suburbs is a trend throughout the western world

Lower tax rates don't solve the issue of lack of land that has driven industry to the suburbs

Here is some help

to : used as a function word to indicate movement or an action or condition suggestive of movement toward a place, person, or thing reached.
 
Since when has reality been inferior to statistics?

Reality measured in what way? Stastically? Eyeballing? Whose "reality"?

It's pretty self evident you have absolutely no concept of what data analysis and scientific method entails, much less an even rudimentary understanding of the complexity of the variables at work. If you can't even demostrate with relevant statistics your assertion that all the conditions I've mentioned (which are by no means exhaustive or even remotely complete) are static, I really don't see any point in furthering this "debate" at all, if all you can bring up is ideological stances and assertions that doesn't hold up to scutiny. Resorting to ad hominem attacks could only be seen as a last straw on your part.

Adios!

AoD
 
And dear, are you able to read? Reconcile these two comments from theman23;





Here is some help

to : used as a function word to indicate movement or an action or condition suggestive of movement toward a place, person, or thing reached.

Huh? I said post-world war 2 suburbs. This is a label generally used to describe the inner suburbs, not the regular (or "outer") suburbs which were built much later on. I thought this was common knowledge? If I had said what you thought I said, then my post would have made absolutely no sense.
"Jobs are leaving X to relocate to X"
Again, huh?
 

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