Toronto St Lawrence Market North | 25.3m | 5s | City of Toronto | Rogers Stirk Harbour

Is this stretch of Front anyones preferred route for drivers? Do we have recent traffic stats? Some sort of gate system like Kensington has that would allow them to close the market frontage on Saturdays would be nice. Making it flat with pavers would be good. They could get some more tents out on the street for vendors.
 
I think it is a very common route out of and into downtown (though into downtown, Wellington usually takes the larger share). It is always choked with cars at rush hour. It feeds into and from Eastern, which is a huge traffic sink.
 
Yeah, until recently I had a very good view of the Gardiner out of the city, and it's rarely busy.

The conduits to it, like Jarvis, that's not exactly true of....

Which is a good reason to cancel the Gardiner. We'll never have the local road capacity downtown anymore to soak up all of the cars that a huge highway like that can carry.
 
Gardiner: How much will Cherry ramps take off Jarvis? I’d also imagine that the Ontario line messing up Queen is gonna put more demand on every other adjacent street - so maybe refurbishing Front St. Is gonna have to wait a decade? Those streetcar tracks on Wellington could come in handy.
 
Slow progress on windows; most of the steel frame is complete, the top floors need finishing off.

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Provided the park features listed above, and the other submissions, does anyone know if this project is reflective of the degree that future projects will take on specific references/or features of indigenous culture/place-keeping/etc?
 
ML555 said:
Provided the park features listed above, and the other submissions, does anyone know if this project is reflective of the degree that future projects will take on specific references/or features of indigenous culture/place-keeping/etc?
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It won't be every project, but it will be a recurring theme.

Especially in larger/signature projects (as opposed to the small neighbourhood playground.)

You will see extensive references to Indigenous culture in the plan for the Toronto Islands, and in Centennial Park, and several other spots.
 
Here's what I think...

In terms of programming, I wonder how often Indigenous-led programming would happen, although I would support it if that isn't a problem. In terms of other programming, it should be more than just events. It should be a place that people go to even when there isn't anything official going on, one where things just happen. It would be great if we had some permeability. This would, on the other hand, be influenced by the uses and design of adjacent buildings so it might be hard to implement a permanently vibrant place if those key aspects are outside of the project's scope.

I like the paving and layout very much. It reflects the historic nature of the St. Lawrence district and creates a sense of intimacy, which is often lacking in new public spaces. The creation of rooms is a great idea that I hope will make people comfortable in spending their time here. The gateways at the southern and northern ends of the lane are both beautiful, symbolic, and help define & separate the space from the streets while still giving off a visual connection to Lake Ontario and the manicured plantings of St James Park.

I like the wood pole lighting and their rationale for using it (to recall the forests that used to be here) but it just isn't appropriate for this area. The St Lawrence pedestrian lights help give this place its charm and they're in many places, including Market Street, so it would be much better to use them to continue the historic feel of this district.

I'm kind of iffy when it comes to public sinks, drinking fountains, and hand-warming stations but that might be because it's never been done before in Toronto, a concern that they won't fit in well in terms of their design, and that they might become a magnet for homeless people. I'd appreciate it if someone rebutted this idea.
 
daniel_kryz said:
.... It would be great if we had some permeability. This would, on the other hand, be influenced by the uses and design of adjacent buildings so it might be hard to implement a permanently vibrant place if those key aspects are outside of the project's scope.
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Given that there is and will be parking underneath, along with building foundations on two sides, there is limited room for real permeability, unfortunately. You could do it, but you have to directionally flow that water somewhere, and there aren't a lot of good spots to send it.

daniel_kryz said:
The St Lawrence pedestrian lights help give this place its charm and they're in many places, including Market Street, so it would be much better to use them to continue the historic feel of this district.
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This ^^^^ The Victorian lighting also ties the space to Market Street in the south and to St. James Park to the north.

daniel_kryz said:
I'm kind of iffy when it comes to public sinks, drinking fountains, and hand-warming stations but that might be because it's never been done before in Toronto, a concern that they won't fit in well in terms of their design, and that they might become a magnet for homeless people. I'd appreciate it if someone rebutted this idea.
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Drinking fountains are a great public asset in parks, period, for everyone.

I'm not as sold on the public sinks idea, particularly since this will be a seasonal feature. Better to make the public washrooms in the adjacent building accessible year round, and for extended hours of operation. Services the same purpose, but does it more effectively.

Hand warming stations...... I'm not sold on that myself. I don't see anything wrong w/it per se............. I just think that when it comes to making Toronto winter-friendly, you want to have fully heated spaces for people, when they need that; and/or heated transit shelters are a proven idea as well.

Most people are likely wearing gloves/mitts on a cold day; if someone lacks those, providing them might seem a preferable choice.

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Finally, I don't think one should generally be concerned about attracting the homeless somewhere. I think we should be concerned that there are homeless people.

I think to the extent that one is concerned about a space seeming unwelcoming to others, generally because of some type of undesirable behavior.........that is best addressed by making the space successful and well used; and by making sure
that you avoid issues such as public urination, by providing public washrooms!
 
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Northern Light said:
Given that there is and will be parking underneath, along with building foundations on two sides, there is limited room for real permeability, unfortunately. You could do it, but you have to directionally flow that water somewhere, and there aren't a lot of good spots to sent it.
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Sorry for not being clear. I was talking about an active & permeable membrane between the buildings and the public realm, which is a fancy way of saying it has fine-grained destinations and things going in and out, thereby giving life to this place and making it a place that people want to hang out in. For example, the waitresses are going in and out with food, the outdoors are designed to serve as an extension of whatever's going on inside. It's the opposite of a place where you want to go inside ASAP, because the outdoors are comfortable and full of life. The edges of the public realm are very important and I have a feeling that the St Lawrence Market North building will be just a wall of very nice glass and concrete instead of a vibrant, unique, and fine-grained enclosure to the aforementioned outdoor rooms. This project is going in the right direction in terms of that, but there's only so much it can do if the adjacent buildings aren't conducive to street life.
Northern Light said:
This ^^^^ The Victorian lighting also ties the space to Market Street in the south and to St. James Park to the north.
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Exactly - and it doesn't seem right to use the waterfront street light in a heritage district, although it would be interesting to see them in other areas of the city.
Unfortunately (for public ROWs), the original design has been rejected by Toronto Hydro and are now a little less interesting.
I spoke with a waterfront planner on Monday and I was pleasantly surprised that he and his team (Waterfront Secretariat) are pressuring THSL to reconsider, but for now we'll only see them in areas that aren't managed by hydro.

It agree - it's good to include drinking fountains but sinks and hand-warming stations are kinda excessive... although the latter would serve me well cuz I always forget my gloves!
I agree that making places vibrant and successful is a better deterrent of anti-social behaviour than hostile urban environments, and actually reducing homelessness is what we should be focused on.
 
Northern Light said:
Survey up on the preferred design for Market Lane Park.

- Survey not found

s-ca.chkmkt.com s-ca.chkmkt.com

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I use Market Lane almost daily. The amount of sunlight shown in this rendering doesn't reflect reality. The lane is quite dark throughout the day and at all times of the year. I'm concerned the proposal doesn't truly account for the lack of sun here.
 
Northern Light said:
o the extent that one is concerned about a space seeming unwelcoming to others, generally because of some type of undesirable behavior.........that is best addressed by making the space successful and well used; and by making sure
that you avoid issues such as public urination, by providing public washrooms!
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Walking through this area daily, I'm not sure I can fully share a maximally optimistic take on the relationship that people experiencing homelessness will have irrespective of the nature/content of the remodel. Specifically, I think you are correct that the objective should be successful execution, which will drive normal usage, however provided that a lot of congregating and sometimes damage from the unhoused takes place at night, I'm not sure successful execution will have much bearing on ensuring the space does not end up being damaged. Specifically, I can seek things like outdoor sinks or hand-washing stations being unusable very quickly.

None of that is to say, one way or another, not to attempt the most exciting/useful park you can, or neglect all of the likely visitors to the park.
 
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