Toronto St. Clair West Transit Improvements | ?m | ?s | TTC

[spmarshall]

Since the Spadina Car runs every 2-3 minutes, bunching is inevitable, especially when the signal priority hasn't been turned on.

Spadina would be a mess if it were busituted. And the 77 bus was terrible. I did take it before the 510 started, and tried it for myself.

 

[unimaginative2]

I'm not just talking about peak periods though. When it's running every two minutes, it's not uncommon to see four or more bunched up. I'm talking about two or more streetcars bunched up off peak, often resulting in waiting times of over twenty minutes.

 

[cdl42]

I really think that reliability on ALL TTC routes, not just Spadina, is a major issue. I cannot accept that what we see on that line is normal, never mind inevitable. Even the TTC frequently claims that it is unable to maintain schedules in mixed traffic, but yet manages to be just as bad with a ROW.

Sure, it might be impossible to run a perfectly reliable service... but what I am skeptical about is whether the TTC is even trying.

I see pointing at Spadina as proof that streetcars and ROWs are unreliable and not worthwhile as being as relevant as pointing at the Circle Line in London as proof that subway lines are unreliable and not worthwhile.

 

[Chuck100]

Spadina doesn't work as well as one would hope because when converted to a right of way, nothing changed except for where the tracks were placed. The stops are literally 300 feet apart which is much too close, and taking into consideration the number of major east west streets that cross it, thankfully signal priority is not being used.

The stops on St. Clair are much farther apart, and there are far fewer traffic lights. Not only that, but almost all of the streets that intersect St. Clair are minor roads that will not cause a lot of red time on St. Clair. The bottom line is that St. Clair can actually support a properly functioning ROW while Spadina simply can't. High speed surface transit in a dense urban setting is not a reality.

For those very same reasons, the farther out you go, the more time can be saved on a transit ROW. While the Spadina ROW won't save any time, the St. Clair ROW may save 10%. Go further out, and a Finch ROW would save 50%. That figure would be even higher if the TTC brought in the honour system.

 

[Degnaw]

^i dont think the honor (honour?) system would work on spadina or st. clair because someone could just hop on one stop before the subway, ride to it, and hop off and grab a transfer...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Go further out, and a Finch ROW would save 50%. That figure would be even higher if the TTC brought in the honour system."

Err...not on Finch East. That would make it noticeably faster than a car, probably faster than a subway even. Finch West I shouldn't comment on because I don't ride it enough.

edit - just noticed I'm comparing a streetcar in a ROW to a bus in mixed traffic; you're probably thinking of a streetcar in a ROW vs a streetcar in mixed traffic...but they wouldn't put one of those on Finch, anyway.

I can see ROWs conceivably working well on Eglinton East, Don Mills, Kingston, etc. Streets like Kipling and Jane seem to be good candidates but they narrow considerably towards Bloor...although if St. Clair can be narrowed and everything works out fine, maybe the same could be true for similar roads.

more edits:
"I really think that reliability on ALL TTC routes, not just Spadina, is a major issue."

Most, not all. I can probably count on one hand the number of times my local bus route has ever been noticeably off-schedule going southbound, and I've taken it perhaps thousands of times. At least half the time, I can time my arrival at the bus stop and the bus' arrival to within one minute...going northbound is a different matter entirely, though, because I can't time my arrival at stations via subway. Of course, suburban bus routes like this are the exception, not the rule, but I have no continuing complaints with any of the other bus routes I take on a regular basis (except the Steeles night bus >: ). The TTC manages to offer reliable service on some routes without even trying, but on other routes its service manages to perpetually suck.

 

[Degnaw]

"edit - just noticed I'm comparing a streetcar in a ROW to a bus in mixed traffic; you're probably thinking of a streetcar in a ROW vs a streetcar in mixed traffic...but they wouldn't put one of those on Finch, anyway."
I think the streetcar in a ROW on finch would be completely unlike the others in that it will run through a water corridor and will not go through any intersections, just cross roads. If the row was actually in the median the speed increase would be negligible, if not negated due to the lack of flexibility (i.e. route 139.5 finch east subway express or something). The hydro corridor will limit the number of stops and crossings will be controlled by gates (or the like), not by traffic lights.

 

[BrianHawkins1]

"High speed surface transit in a dense urban setting is not a reality."

Amen. I really, really wish this truism would finally sink in across the board.

 

[unimaginative2]

Instead, the very opposite seems to be the common view: all of our transit problems in dense core areas will be solved with "high speed" surface transit.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"The hydro corridor will limit the number of stops and crossings will be controlled by gates (or the like), not by traffic lights."

It crosses 30 streets between Yonge & Markham, including the 404. I can really see drivers on Warden or don Mills enjoying gates coming down every 2 minutes during rush hour - it's fricken annoying on Steeles, Finch, etc., and GO trains only come 8 times per day. Or it could all be grade separated, which would cost...$500 million including the rails and cars? Or we could spend maybe $10 million and set up a Rocket route on Finch using articulated buses...bam, Yonge to McCowan in 20 minutes. The god of streetcars doesn't always need to descend from the heavens and lavish gifts of ROWs upon routes that can be served very well by buses.

 

[unimaginative2]

The common wisdom is that locating in the hydro corridor isn't a good idea anyway. Any streetcar along there will be located in the median of the street.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Wisdom" and "streetcar ROW on Finch" should not be uttered in the same breath.

edit - the bus is fine...Yonge to Brimley rarely takes more than 30 minutes. Even during rush hour that could easily be sub-25 minutes, maybe even 20, if Rocket service was added.

 

[Degnaw]

"it's fricken annoying on Steeles, Finch, etc"
^a light rail gate system is used in many places around the world...unlike GO trains, the gates are usually down for less than 20 seconds at a time, not 2-3 minutes. Busier roads (i.e. Don mills) can use grade separation.

The point to using the Hydro corridor is that there are many places where high-rises meet it, and construction costs will be greatly reduced. Of course, i've never seen one and have no idea of the unattractiveness of it (its just a grass field with wires, right?). Anyways, if the bus only takes 20 minutes, I really don't see why they're even considering a streetcar ROW. Having express buses will be a good idea, too.

 

[jeicow]

unlike GO trains, the gates are usually down for less than 20 seconds at a time, not 2-3 minutes.

I think the original point was that each time a streetcar past the gates would need to go down unless they went for some sort of over/underpass arrangement, which I think would likely make the cost savings of using a ROW marginal/disappear.

 

[EnviroTO]

High speed surface transit in a dense urban setting is not a reality.

It's too bad that this common sense doesn't play much part in transit planning. Subways are being built to fields in Vaughan and ROWs are being pushed downtown.