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Toronto St. Clair West Transit Improvements | ?m | ?s | TTC

"Can you outline why you would do that? I just don't see the point when it would be more expensive to do your plan, and still leave the northwest of the city with horrible transit. One of the main benefits of the Weston line is that it finally gives transit to Rexdale, which is actually pretty dense and nowhere near any rapid transit line. Also, stopping at Cherry St. seems pretty strange. If you are going to take it past Union, you may as well connect it back to Bloor to form a DRL rather than a stub line that only goes a few stops."

First, Eglington was started then halted. East-west above bloor seems to be deficient. For the east you have the Sheppard line, but it was not finished. For the west side the Eglinton line was started -- then filled in a manner that it would be restarted in the future. Interlining in dense (bay bloor) area just causes the system to slow down -- this is not. Each of these "shortening" of some of these lines does not mean it will always be that way -- just until some of the densities start to catch up. The problem with most of the "planned" subway is that subways are cost effective in dense population areas. Toronto has one massively dense core and not-so-much dense (everywhere else). Subways cannot be built with no thought of increasing the density of areas that it served. By making each station part of a local increase in density -- it is an attempt to more evenly spread out dense pockets -- which will hopefully just be a seed in each of those areas. If the density catches up -- then the lines can be extended. I thought of stopping at Union but I figured it would be better to just finish up that station and line outside of those areas -- you don't have to cut open union station and start construction again. I picked cherry road since the condo development seems to be spreading along the waterfront and I figure the east will pick up. Also it provides a link from the docks area to the city.

The interlining of the last portion of the Eglinton line to the airport would give connection from the airport east to Yonge, or down to the downtown core. Pulling together different transportation hubs.

ALL subway construction would be conditional on the construction of increased density at each of the nodes.
 
^
But most of the stations he has proposed are high density.
The ones that aren't will have high second order transit connections because these are established areas.

It will be easy to build because there is already a right of way i.e. no tunneling costs except the NE quadrant.
 
Just to be clear, I can't take credit for the Weston proposal. I just added a couple stations and modified the location of one...
 
"Re: Eglinton line, the only destinations on Eglinton that I can think of are Yonge and Eg., Ontario Science Centre and Celestica. The first is already served, and the last two can be served by your line. But there are are a lot of trip originators on Eglinton, but your line would be much easier to implement."

Don't forget the almost 100,000 bus riders that take Eglinton East routes every day. 5 routes overlap between Yonge and Laird and the portion just east of Kennedy is 30% busier than the Downsview to York U corridor (which is getting a subway). There's a continuous wall of towers between Yonge and Bayview and everything east of, basically, Leslie, is prime redevelopment fodder. A Don Mills/Weston line would handle all the downtown commuters fine, meaning a subway along any portion of Eglinton would only be necessary if the Avenues plan got rolling.

"Don Mills part of my line, Wynford was just going to be Eglinton and Don Mills, and regarding tunneling, under the current map it'd be tunneled pretty much from the rail line in Riverdale north."

I'm sure that a Don Mills line could practically run at grade from Overlea on north because the street/right of way is so wide. Don Mills could definitely be reduced to two lanes of traffic each way with a rail line in the middle or the side or raised or in a trench or whatever...strictly tunnelling shouldn't be necessary.

"Extend the Sheppard line from Downsview down through Scarborough TC and loop back on Bloor line."

The only benefit I can think of that that provides is cheaper construction costs.
 
ED Drass column in Metro:

TTC manager questions Spadina plan

With a flurry of money arriving in last week’s provincial budget, what did the TTC get? The City of Toronto hasn’t formally approved the transit budget, but it looks like the fare hike goes ahead April 1. Even though $200 million dollars were officially earmarked for TTC operations this year and next, it is understood the city will use the money to stave off high tax hikes or more budget reductions.

TTC chief general manager Rick Ducharme says, “It’s going to go to the bottom line of the city, which means they don’t have to cut any more out of the TTC.†He wanted to protect staff increases to will keep pace with system overcrowding. “What the province has done for us is help the city out ... and we’re a big winner from it.â€

He hopes rush hour bus service can be expanded next year when 100 new “ridership growth†buses arrive. However, Ducharme cautions against designating funds to eliminate a fare hike in 2007. Costs like replacement vehicles and subway repairs are apparently securely covered.

The province also set aside $670 million to extend the Spadina subway line north to York University and on to Highway 7 in Vaughan. Ducharme says the project will cost about $2 billion. The balance must be paid by Toronto, the Region of York, and the federal government.

Will Ottawa help? Says Ducharme, “Everyone feels they’re there. If the federal one-third isn’t there, I don’t think we have a project.â€

I asked him how we can ensure this subway expansion into low-density suburbs won’t cause a major drain on TTC finances. “It has to have proper development around the stations,†he says, “I’ve said that openly and I’m going to continue to.

“If up front we don’t have agreements on what the densities are going to be — so that you generate the revenues for the cities to pay for this ... why are we building it? If we’re going to build the Spadina extension like the existing Spadina (line) is built, it shouldn’t be built.

“When you’ve got Glencairn ... and a couple other stations there (that have low patronage), as far as I’m concerned we should close them — they’re a waste of money and maintenance. Either we have development around there to justify it, or don’t put a station.

“It’s got to be signed off so that local politics don’t overturn it, as happened on Sheppard (along the subway line). I mean, Sheppard has fairly good development — but nothing like should have been there, or was going to be there. The agreements have to be up front, and I would hope the feds and the province say that’s the deal.â€

The province also announced it would create a GTA agency to oversee transit and regional road projects. Will it affect the way he does his jb? “Not at all.â€


Notice how Rick Ducharme agrees with my idea that low-ridership subway stations should be closed down...
 
He is referring to the urban context around the stations, not the fact that the stations have low(er) ridership per se, and certainly not from the perspective that somehow closing stations will save an appreciable amount of trip time. Here is what you've said, verbatim:

Looking that ridership for the stations, I am surpised to see that Old Mill isn't the most useless subway station after all. I think they should close down this station to improve the speed of the subway because I never see anyone get off or on from it. Rosedale, Summerhill, Glencairn, and Chester should also all be closed down.

p083.ezboard.com/ftoronto...21&stop=40

Nice try, however. Perhaps you should apply for a job at the TTC.

AoD
 
The subway west of Union on the map I posted was the idea of the Weston Community Coalition, though they didn't have stops at Oak and Skydome/Cityplace. I still find it odd when I e-mailed them about adding the cityplace stop the woman I contacted didn't think it was a good idea.
 
From the Star:

Next subway stop: Vaughan
`This physically connects York (University) to a bigger network, a larger community.'
Apr. 11, 2006. 05:42 AM
TONY WONG
BUSINESS REPORTER


With an unprecedented real estate boom transforming the Greater Toronto Area over the last few years, what more could a developer ask for?

For a few lucky — some would say smart, or even politically astute — landowners, it may be getting better still. Happiness is having a brand new subway line right at your doorstep.

Simon Nyilassy became — literally overnight — one of the big beneficiaries last month when the provincial government issued the blockbuster announcement that the subway line would be extended to Vaughan.

The chief executive officer of powerhouse retail mall owner Calloway Real Estate Investment Trust finds himself in the epicentre of what has bloomed from a desirable commercial area into some of the top commercial land in the country.

"This is a tremendously exciting opportunity, and the subway will be a catalyst for the area," he says. "And we find ourselves right in the middle of it all."

Real estate, after all, is all about location, and, with a new office overlooking the Vaughan corporate park, Nyilassy isn't kidding. He is as close to ground zero as you can get.

Because of the subway, his company is far more bullish on the area, and will potentially invest up to a billion dollars, he said in an interview. That staggering sum would make Vaughan the single most important piece of the Calloway portfolio, and the confidence could spark a stampede of other development.

In a surprise announcement last month, the province said it was putting up $670 million toward extending the Spadina subway line through York University and into the "city above Toronto," linking the 416 and 905 area-code regions.

Nyilassy isn't the only winner, of course. York University, the City of Vaughan and a string of powerful developers are breaking out the champagne, or perhaps an extra crane or two.

Without the subway, the neglected northwestern region seemed destined to be disconnected from the rest of Toronto by clogged roads and an overloaded bus system. The potential of being linked to a bigger city and the lure of increased density has meant that the area — now a sometimes drab hodge-podge of industrial, retail and residential buildings, with a massive university campus in the middle — will now probably undergo major transformation.

Since the announcement, Vaughan's phone has barely stopped ringing with calls from developers. It's music to the ears of Frank Miele, commissioner of economic development and perhaps the city's biggest cheerleader.


"To imagine is everything, and, boy, did we imagine," Miele laughs. "Now we have people knocking on our doors."

For more than eight years, Vaughan has been trying to cobble together a 243-hectare development called the Vaughan Corporate Centre, from roughly Highway 407 north to Highway 7, with the centrepiece being a 51-hectare downtown. Miele envisions a downtown filled with restaurants, hotels and cultural venues.

It was a gamble. Most insiders thought the subway at best would stop at York University, not continue all the way north.

"We can promise the world — but we have to deliver first," says Miele, who estimates 60,000 jobs will be created in the development.

Nyilassy will probably be responsible for more than a few of those jobs.

As a developer with 20.2 hectares at Keele St. and Highway 7, across the street from Miele's project, Nyilassy finds himself with property that is far more valuable than it was the day before the March 23 announcement: 20 to 50 per cent more, by some estimates.

With a Wal-Mart shopping centre already on the site, Nyilassy's original 600,000-square-foot project now has the potential to become more than 4 million square feet of space.

"The subway has really changed the dynamic of the project," he says. "We've moved from a pretty traditional outdoor-plaza concept to something much more large-scale."

Over the next 10 years, Calloway, which controls a substantial real estate portfolio of about $2.5 billion, intends to invest up to another billion dollars, which will make the REIT a major player in the area. Calloway will probably invest in a mix of retail, office and residential space.

To end near Nyilassy's property, the subway will first snake north from Downsview station, with a likely stop at Finch Ave. and Keele St., giving a tremendous boost to the retail strip across from York University. Moving north, the subway will stop inside the campus of Canada's third-largest university. That's making university officials giddy at the possibility of building a research park.

"This physically connects York to a bigger network, a larger community," says Bud Purves, president of the York University Development Corp. "It also means that the university will continue to attract the best and the brightest."

Purves, a long-time Toronto developer whose last job was, among other things, running the CN Tower for TrizecHahn Corp., is now responsible for overseeing the university's prospects for development.

The university has 16.2 choice, developable hectares on the north side of the campus towards Steeles Ave., and another 8.1 hectares toward Finch Ave. to the south.

"It's certainly an exciting time, because we'll be looking at all potential types of uses for the area," Purves says. One option will be to house a kind of scientific "research park," geared toward research and development, he says.

"We're not sure what form it will take, but it will be easier to attract researchers now that you're connected to the rest of the city. However, it's not something we will approach in a glib fashion. We'll examine everything with as much input as possible."

Another plus for the university is that thousands of buses stop on the grounds every day, contributing to pollution and congestion. A subway will greatly improve the quality of life for students, Purves says.

And of course, increased land values don't hurt.

"What this means is that it enhances York's ability to access land value in the future," he says. "It's money in the pocket for York."

Other winners on campus include homeowners living at the Tribute Communities development at the university, where the last of more than 500 homes are being completed. Starting prices on the properties ranged from $279,000 for townhomes to $458,990 for detached styles.

Residents will probably find that the values of their homes are on the way up, although increased density can be a double-edged sword. Residents along the Sheppard subway line, which opened in 2002, have already seen the results. And not everyone is pleased.

Along the five-stop line, 10,000 new condo units have been approved, representing about 30,000 people. The subway, meanwhile, has been criticized for being half empty as people still continue to take cars, further clogging the streets.

Further north, just across the street from York on Steeles Ave., Milestone Group has built a 100,000-square-foot office building on a 16.2-hectare site and is now leasing another new 150,000-square-foot office building.

"There is no question the subway coming here has been a huge plus," president Chris Holtved says.

Holtved, like Purves, cautions against irrational expectations. After all, the subway is still years away from being built. He doesn't expect the news to affect leasing on phase two of his current project, especially because of the long timeline. Still, the impact is bound to come.

"Office-vacancy rates are already tight across the GTA, but this makes long-term prospects for the area especially strong," Holtved says.

The final stop of the subway is expected to land at the Vaughan Corporate Centre, right across the street from property owned by Calloway.

Calloway and First Vaughan Investment, a small group of private investors that includes Toronto developer Mitch Goldhar, own a good chunk of the land in that area.

Goldhar, who has long been bullish on Vaughan, helped bring Wal-Mart stores to Canada through his First Pro Shopping Centres. He is also the largest shareholder in Calloway.

Still, Nyilassy, a former executive at First Pro, remains the ever-cautious CEO, especially when making forecasts.

As an income trust, his company invests in and owns properties, with revenues coming mainly from property rentals. When the area is fully developed, the CEO estimates, he will make a solid but not spectacular 7 per cent return on the properties.

"We're not going to make out like bandits on this, but we are hoping to do well," he says.

And there is another thing. Canadian developers are all too familiar with the cautionary tale of the rise and fall of the powerful Olympia & York Developments Ltd, owned by the Reichmann family, especially when it comes to subways.

Heeding the call of then British prime minister Margaret Thatcher, developer Paul Reichmann decided to build a British version of Wall Street on the derelict docklands area of London.

The British government promised to provide a public-transit link — but it didn't happen in time. The Reichmanns' company invested billions into the project, but workers couldn't get to the isolated area. Canary Wharf started the economic slide that would lead to the unravelling of the company.

So, some developers would like to see a spade in the ground for the subway before they start building.

"Anything can happen, but this is as good a commitment as you're going to get," says Vaughan's Miele.

Still, developers such as Nyilassy know they could hit bumps along the way, especially when it comes to political promises. His job is to anticipate the worst, but plan for the future. For the time being, the future looks pretty bright.

"We're seeing this as a tremendous opportunity to create a vibrant mix," says Nyilassy. "The subway has brought about that possibility, not just for us, but for a lot of investors who see this as a very significant area, and I think we will all ultimately benefit."

AoD
 
Regarding the proposal to extend the proposed Weston sub subway east from Union to Don Mills, one way of approaching the Bloor-Danforth subway might be at Donlands or Greenwood rather than Pape station. On the downside, I think Pape is where the traffic is, but on the upside, you can get from the Greenwood Yards to Union station via the railway tracks. From there, getting to the Bloor-Danforth subway can be done on TTC property, saving you the cost of tunnelling beneath Pape Avenue.

You still have the trouble of tunnelling north of the Danforth, but every little bit of savings helps.
 
This is my first post here, so hello everyone. I've been reading the forum for a little while, so don't worry, I (hopefully) won't make any rookie mistakes. With that out of the way...

"Regarding the proposal to extend the proposed Weston sub subway east from Union to Don Mills, one way of approaching the Bloor-Danforth subway might be at Donlands or Greenwood rather than Pape station. On the downside, I think Pape is where the traffic is, but on the upside, you can get from the Greenwood Yards to Union station via the railway tracks. From there, getting to the Bloor-Danforth subway can be done on TTC property, saving you the cost of tunnelling beneath Pape Avenue."

If the TTC plans to run a subway through East York, one problem that I don't think has been addressed is how the trains would cross the valley. The Leaside bridge at Pape and Donlands is the obvious place, but I'm not how much work it would require to accomodate subways, as it's not as big as the Viaduct. A subway under Greenwood (which is an entirely residential street, also) would have to veer West a little ways.

Pape and Donlands turn toward each other and merge just south of the bridge, so either one would work for a subway route. However, Pape is usually a *much* busier street than Donlands, from personal experience. Pape is also significantly more dense than Donlands, with a cluster of mid-rise buildings around Pape and Cosburn.

A subway would also effectively replace the 72 Queen East, 81 Thorncliffe and 25 Don Mills bus routes from Pape. I don't know the ridership figures, but I ride all of those buses fairly often and they're quite busy. The 25 especially is always absolutely packed during rush hour even though the buses are usually only 3-4 minutes apart, and is pretty busy at any other time as well. Seems to me like a pretty good fit for a subway, certainly better than some of the surrounding stations.
 
I always thought the easiest way to skip the Don Valley was to have the line go north under Victoria Park. I also think Victoria Park has more opportunities for redevelopment. Of course, I'd also include an Eglinton East line to soak up the large demand at Flemingdon Park.
 
You know, you could also access Victoria Park by going under O'Connor...
 
That's what I would do. Up Woodbine to O'Connor and up to Vic Park.
 
Now, next question. How to cross Taylor Creek? (A parallel bridge, a la Old Mill or Rosedale Valley?)
 

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