Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

don't ya think that's a little dramatic saying "ever"? lol

Well, "ever...for the forseeable future" is a bit contradictory, but I have to agree with that statement though. When there are so many transit-starved higher-density and needy areas within metropolitan Toronto, extending very expensive all-underground subways to York Region doesn't make much sense. GO improvements on the Barrie Line can satisfy long-distance travel from Vaughan and further, and if necessary a Jane LRT would satisfy local needs better anyways. I still have a lot of issues with the TYSSE but it makes enough sense to build, for the most part. Any further into Vaughan and you'd really be pushing the limits.
 
I'm going to rant a bit:
I think it's kind of ridiculous when people talk about the extremely distance future and say things like "subways last 100 years", or, that we should do something because it will be necessary in 50-100 years.

The first subway in North America is an LRT, it runs streetcars partly underground partly at grade like the Eglinton LRT will: the Boston Green line. So yes technically subways, streetcar lines, and LRTs have lasted > 100 years.

However, in 9 days it will be the 60th anniversary of the first subway in Canada, the Yonge subway. It was built 60 years ago when most of Scarborough, Etobicoke and Mississauga was farmland. Are we really pretending to know what will happen or what Toronto will look like in 50-100 years?

I have no problem if people are having fun imagining how things will look in >50 years, but I don't think anybody can confidently say what the world or Toronto will look like that far in the future, especially with regards to transit needs. I mean, Toronto was an extremely small village 200 years ago, 100 years is an insanely long time.

One thing is, you can't always assume current trend lines or look at things that have happened and assume the future will be a continuation. For example, Toronto has grown in population and area continuously pretty much all of it's history. Does that mean it will keep growing indefinitely into the future in population, area, and density? I don't think anybody can say with confidence that it will more than 30 years in the future. Other cities have shrunk in population, I'm not saying Toronto will, I'm saying we can't really predict the distant future when most of us are dead or our brains have been uploaded into computers. :)
 
don't ya think that's a little dramatic saying "ever"? lol

200 years ago Corktown was a poor neighbourhood, and it only ceased being a poor neighbourhood in the last 10 years. Cities certainly change, but they don't change dramatically.

Jane street as far north as Rutherford is composed exclusively of 1 storey warehouses and industrial plants designed for easy truck and freight rail access. I don't see this changing in any of our lifetimes, at least not toward the kind of residential and mixed use walkable districts of certain densities that can support subways.
 
I'm going to rant a bit:
I think it's kind of ridiculous when people talk about the extremely distance future and say things like "subways last 100 years", or, that we should do something because it will be necessary in 50-100 years.

The first subway in North America is an LRT, it runs streetcars partly underground partly at grade like the Eglinton LRT will: the Boston Green line. So yes technically subways, streetcar lines, and LRTs have lasted > 100 years.

However, in 9 days it will be the 60th anniversary of the first subway in Canada, the Yonge subway. It was built 60 years ago when most of Scarborough, Etobicoke and Mississauga was farmland. Are we really pretending to know what will happen or what Toronto will look like in 50-100 years?

Just to add to your rant, when the Yonge subway was open, most of NORTH YORK was still farmland, to say nothing of Mississauga. Heck, a lot of the land north of Finch was farmland when the extension took it up there in the 70s.

Jane street as far north as Rutherford is composed exclusively of 1 storey warehouses and industrial plants designed for easy truck and freight rail access. I don't see this changing in any of our lifetimes, at least not toward the kind of residential and mixed use walkable districts of certain densities that can support subways.

Well, 10 or 15 years ago you could have easily made that argument about Jane and Highway 7 and yet, here we are. I think when you say "Cities don't change that dramatically" you underestimate our role in changing them. Corktown has changed for all sorts of reasons. We could burn it down and replace it with a ferris wheel and that would change it a lot. There's a big chunk of farmland in Pickering that's been about the same for several hundred years but in about 10-15 there's going to be an airport there. And then highways and hotels and all sorts of other stuff. That's pretty dramatic. Or, less dramatically, we could just take a suburb just north of the city, drive a subway up there and see what happens. Those 1-storey warehouses you think are obstructions are as easily destroyed as origami.

(That said, the rail infrastructure around there is a real obstruction. I'm curious how they will handle it in VMC because their nice pedestrian-oriented downtown will suck if 18-wheelers keep tearing through all day...)

As I said a few posts back I don't think there's any serious argument to be made for taking it past Highway 7 in the next little while but there are plenty of crazier ideas. If Toronto's system wasn't so mismanaged and hindered by its own capacity issues, the notion of building subways to greenfields with potential for intensification would seem like an awful good idea, actually.
 
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Just to add to your rant, when the Yonge subway was open, most of NORTH YORK was still farmland, to say nothing of Mississauga. Heck, a lot of the land north of Finch was farmland when the extension took it up there in the 70s.

As I said a few posts back I don't think there's any serious argument to be made for taking it past Highway 7 in the next little while but there are plenty of crazier ideas. If Toronto's system wasn't so mismanaged and hindered by its own capacity issues, the notion of building subways to greenfields with potential for intensification would seem like an awful good idea, actually.

Good point about North York, the streetcar did run up there and there was a bit around Yonge street, but outside of that you're right.

Yeah there's the argument that we should provide service to existing demand and existing parts of the city before building subways to future downtowns or developments, an argument I agree with.

However, even if we were to build subways or other transit into future development areas, you'd think we'd at least build transit into the portlands and east waterfront, where development is already happening and continuing to occur.
 
Or, less dramatically, we could just take a suburb just north of the city, drive a subway up there and see what happens. Those 1-storey warehouses you think are obstructions are as easily destroyed as origami.

Well, we did that in certain places, and it's had zero effect. The intersection of Ellesmere and Midland looks pretty much the same as it did 30 years ago when we built not one, but two rapid transit stations within walking distance of it - industrial and suburban.

Neighbourhoods come and go, but never underestimate the staying power of an active heavy industrial area. Their amenities are hard to move, and no one wants to be the first to step in and live there.
 
Well, we did that in certain places, and it's had zero effect. The intersection of Ellesmere and Midland looks pretty much the same as it did 30 years ago when we built not one, but two rapid transit stations within walking distance of it - industrial and suburban.

Neighbourhoods come and go, but never underestimate the staying power of an active heavy industrial area. Their amenities are hard to move, and no one wants to be the first to step in and live there.

But Yonge and Finch doesn't look like that. There's just a bunch of reasons that go into these things. In theory, Places to Grow and the Greenbelt are more forcefully directing intensification. Some things still happen organically and/or unpredictably but that doesn't mean you can't change things on purpose. It was planning decisions to remove zoning that reinvigorated Corktown and Liberty Village and it wasn't so long ago that walking around Ossington and Trinity-Bellwoods at night was less than cool.

So, to come back on thread, yeah, there are no guarantees but there's already more density at Jane/Major Mac than at Midland and Ellsemere. I suspect it will take time but this will all pay off in Vaughan, and probably better than in Scarborough. Beyond that..who knows.
 
But Yonge and Finch doesn't look like that. There's just a bunch of reasons that go into these things. In theory, Places to Grow and the Greenbelt are more forcefully directing intensification. Some things still happen organically and/or unpredictably but that doesn't mean you can't change things on purpose. It was planning decisions to remove zoning that reinvigorated Corktown and Liberty Village and it wasn't so long ago that walking around Ossington and Trinity-Bellwoods at night was less than cool.

So, to come back on thread, yeah, there are no guarantees but there's already more density at Jane/Major Mac than at Midland and Ellsemere. I suspect it will take time but this will all pay off in Vaughan, and probably better than in Scarborough. Beyond that..who knows.

Well, there's a bit of a difference between places like Liberty Village and places like Jane and Langstaff (which is on the way to Major Mac). While it wasn't obvious that these places would become the hot places they were, the seeds were sort of in place: a place like Liberty Village has old historic industrial buildings of multiple stories that are still built on a walkable grid. The properties are relatively easy to convert to other uses. Moreover, Liberty Village is located close to a downtown that has seen incredible revitalization over the past 20 years. Looking ahead, it's not implausible that similarly industrial areas like, say, the Studio District will look more like Liberty Village in the future, or that the industrial areas near Eglinton and Laird will be upzoned to take advantage of the new EC-LRT, plus the historic desirability of nearby Leaside.

This is a bit of a different story from a cement silo or logistics warehouse in a 905 industrial park. For starters, these aren't properties that are easily convertible or desirable for uses other than the one it was built for. Second, they're not next to areas that are becoming rapidly desirable. Third - and probably most importantly - there are established industrial users in the area who have a vested interest in keeping things that way. CN is not going to suddenly abandon its giant marshalling yard because some condo developers give it a good offer. This is not something that is easily replaceable for CN, and represents an enormous sunk cost. This is the same reason why Downsview remains an active Bombardier assembly plant, despite the fact that it is now well within the city, beside a subway line and across the highway from one of the most upscale malls in the region.

Back to the Midland and Ellesmere example, not only are there 2 rapid transit stations nearby, but nobody would have guessed that the low density industrial uses would outlive the rapid transit line. Yet here we are, and that's a distinct possibility.
 
Well, there's a bit of a difference between places like Liberty Village and places like Jane and Langstaff (which is on the way to Major Mac). While it wasn't obvious that these places would become the hot places they were, the seeds were sort of in place: a place like Liberty Village has old historic industrial buildings of multiple stories that are still built on a walkable grid. The properties are relatively easy to convert to other uses. Moreover, Liberty Village is located close to a downtown that has seen incredible revitalization over the past 20 years. Looking ahead, it's not implausible that similarly industrial areas like, say, the Studio District will look more like Liberty Village in the future, or that the industrial areas near Eglinton and Laird will be upzoned to take advantage of the new EC-LRT, plus the historic desirability of nearby Leaside.

This is a bit of a different story from a cement silo or logistics warehouse in a 905 industrial park. For starters, these aren't properties that are easily convertible or desirable for uses other than the one it was built for. Second, they're not next to areas that are becoming rapidly desirable. Third - and probably most importantly - there are established industrial users in the area who have a vested interest in keeping things that way. CN is not going to suddenly abandon its giant marshalling yard because some condo developers give it a good offer. This is not something that is easily replaceable for CN, and represents an enormous sunk cost. This is the same reason why Downsview remains an active Bombardier assembly plant, despite the fact that it is now well within the city, beside a subway line and across the highway from one of the most upscale malls in the region.

Back to the Midland and Ellesmere example, not only are there 2 rapid transit stations nearby, but nobody would have guessed that the low density industrial uses would outlive the rapid transit line. Yet here we are, and that's a distinct possibility.

Yeah, I don't fundamentally disagree. "Closer to Lake Ontario and historic Toronto" definitely helps more than "Close to Canada's biggest rail yard and a fake mountain." And that rail yard is a fundamental obstruction, no doubt; CN is not going to move it in any of our lifetimes or really ever, as long as rail remains viable. It's also clear that the Bloor-Danforth line has not attracted nearly the intensification the Yonge line has (which is more ammo for the Yonge north extension; but that's for another thread).

I just look at VMC and think it will almost certainly turn out better than Midland & Ellesmere because the planning practically requires it to be. Whether it can further drive intensification on the other side of the 400 or further north along Jane, I don't know. (Langstaff is a mess. I think/expect the plan is to bridge the gap over the rail yard and make it a truck bypass so the trucks are taken off Highway 7.) The combo of Vaughan Mills/Wonderland and the hospital will make Major Mac a sort of decent sub-node that I'm sure can be well-served by bus (maybe BRT as Viva grows?) in the foreseeable future. The initial question was about how far a subway COULD go (assuming other capacity issues addressed and, I suppose, money to spend) and in that context I would take both the Yonge and Spadina lines up to Major MAc. The Oak Ridges Moraine and other factors make it practically untenable to ever go beyond that, I suspect.
 
Toronto Subway LRT map has a long way to go when you compare it to other cities.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_eye/..._quest_to_standardize_the_world_s_subway.html

Very interesting! I'm going to try my hand at a GTHA map using the rules he has set out, and see what I come up with. The standard seems to be numbers of local rapid transit (subway and LRT), and letters for regional rapid transit. Also, solid lines for subway, the line with the white stripe down the middle (don't know what the official term is, if anyone knows please tell me) for LRT, and faded solid line for regional rail. Also, it needs to fit on a square map.

Hmm, this is going to be fun, haha. Of course, it'll be a realistic fantasy map, with a few indulgences, but mostly based on official plans.
 
Very interesting! I'm going to try my hand at a GTHA map using the rules he has set out, and see what I come up with. The standard seems to be numbers of local rapid transit (subway and LRT), and letters for regional rapid transit. Also, solid lines for subway, the line with the white stripe down the middle (don't know what the official term is, if anyone knows please tell me) for LRT, and faded solid line for regional rail. Also, it needs to fit on a square map.

Hmm, this is going to be fun, haha. Of course, it'll be a realistic fantasy map, with a few indulgences, but mostly based on official plans.

Remember "regional trains" in Paris, Tokyo and Berlin are not the same as in Toronto, as the former run at subway-like intervals/hours and are fully integrated.
GTA's regional trains shouldn't be on the map. Let's not inflate our system.
 

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