Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

[JasonParis]

How exactly does it work for Laval riders on the STM Metro?

 

[nfitz]

How exactly does it work for Laval riders on the STM Metro?

It's in a different fare zone. Monthly pass is $111 compared to $70 for the rest of the system. Though unlike Toronto, if you pay for the $111, it also includes all commuter trains, buses, and subways in those zones.

 

[JasonParis]

But how does it work if you are paying cash/tickets? You pay to get on in Montreal and pay again to get off in Laval?

 

[Justin10000]

Since only YRT, and GO buses will be connecting to VCC, and Highway 407 stations, Why not just make riders pay the extra fare as they enter the station? I have not been to Finch in a while, but there does not seem to be much of a problem with YRT, and GO riders paying the TTC fare, and there is little chance VCC, or Hgihway 407 will reach the ridership level of Finch. I understand there will be complaints from York Region, but I do not think it's fair Toront residents should subsidize York Region riders.

 

[CDL.TO]

Since only YRT, and GO buses will be connecting to VCC, and Highway 407 stations, Why not just make riders pay the extra fare as they enter the station? I have not been to Finch in a while, but there does not seem to be much of a problem with YRT, and GO riders paying the TTC fare, and there is little chance VCC, or Hgihway 407 will reach the ridership level of Finch. I understand there will be complaints from York Region, but I do not think it's fair Toront residents should subsidize York Region riders.

Toronto taxpayers shouldn't have to subsidize York residents, sure. But YRT and GO riders shouldn't have to pay an extra fare for a short trip to York U that was previously free.

 

[nfitz]

But how does it work if you are paying cash/tickets? You pay to get on in Montreal and pay again to get off in Laval?

As far as I know, they only worry about the charge to enter the 3 Laval stations. Travelling to the Laval stations is the same price. But if you've got a pass, then you get can't back in the station without the right pass, and I think it's a double-fare to enter the station. Though now they've got OPUS running, I'm not as clear how it works.

 

[CDL.TO]

As far as I know, they only worry about the charge to enter the 3 Laval stations. Travelling to the Laval stations is the same price. But if you've got a pass, then you get can't back in the station without the right pass, and I think it's a double-fare to enter the station. Though now they've got OPUS running, I'm not as clear how it works.

It is a bit of a mess. Look at this table. As far as I could tell, as you said there's never anything stopping you from leaving the station, but to enter the station you need the proper monthly pass for the zone. You need a special ticket to enter the syetem there, but cash fare is the same as anywhere else on the system. And daily and 3-day passes are valid. OPUS didn't fix any of the fare integration issues. Just like PRESTO, it just offered a single card that works on multiple systems.

 

[nfitz]

It is a bit of a mess. Look at this table. As far as I could tell, as you said there's never anything stopping you from leaving the station, but to enter the station you need the proper monthly pass for the zone. You need a special ticket to enter the syetem there, but cash fare is the same as anywhere else on the system. And daily and 3-day passes are valid. OPUS didn't fix any of the fare integration issues. Just like PRESTO, it just offered a single card that works on multiple systems.

OPUS isn't anything to do with fare integratation. Neither is PRESTO. That's some kind of transit fan myth ... it's a payment scheme.

OPUS seems more flawed than PRESTO in some ways. With PRESTO you simply have either a pass loaded, and/or cash ... which can then get you entry on various schemes at discounted rates. With OPUS, as far as I understand, you actually have to buy different tickets (which stay on your card) for the various systems you might travel on. And for Montreal I think you need to have bought both regular metro tickets, and Laval metro tickets.

Though, on the other hand, Quebec has had fare integration on the pass level for decades. A monthly commuter rail pass isn't that expensive, and also lets you ride the local transit buses and metro. And this was true 20 years ago when I used to commute on both AMT and Metro, for a monthly pass less than my TTC pass later the same year.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I don't understand....why do they have to recover "the extra expense?" Do they have to cover the extra expense of going to Finch and Steeles?

I swear I read this all somewhere - TTC gets 100% of the farebox and 100% of the parking revenue from all the stations on the extension.
It's possible I'm misremembering or extrapolating from something else, but I believe that's the case.

EDIT: Here is the TTC MOU for the extension:
The TTC will be responsible for the full operating costs [emphasis mine] of the Spadina Subway extension from Downsview to the Vaughan corporate centre and receive all Revenue from the project (passenger revenue, commuter parking, advertising, retail leasing), with the exception of the operating costs for bus terminal and passenger pickup and drop-off facilities located in York Region, which shall be maintained and operated by York Region."


Thus, if someone comes from Union Station to VMC, they'd pay a single TTC fare and then a YRT or GO fare if they transfer.
If someone rides from VMC down to York U, they would similar pay the TTC fare (and a YRT fare if that's how they got to VMC).

I also don't understand how people like Justin, with all due respect, differentiate between "York Region Riders" and "Toronto Riders." If you were to somehow ban people with 905 addresses (business or home) from TTC subways I suggest ridership would drop substantially. They're all TRANSIT riders. Though I understand TTC is a Toronto-funded system at the end of the day, take "York Region Riders" out of the equation and TTC's cashbox revenue takes a big hit. That's their contribution.

I expect when Presto is fully online there will be some sort of zone system, or something else that affects how this all runs. And Presto should be online by 2015, even in Toronto, shouldn't it? Plus. Metrolinx will come up with its "investment strategy" by 2013 and that's likely to alter the landscape as well. But the priroity won't be making sure Toronto isn't subsidizing anyone; it will be about making sure riders are paying their fare share to go from X to Y, no matter what municipalities those two locations might be in.

 

[buschic]

well I guess even if not many people use these new stations, they will be big enough to hold conventions so that's plus . Seriously though, I don't understand why they are being built so big? I counted 11 entrance turnstiles in the Sheppard West report picture. Unless these stations really have a lot of people in them all the time, they will feel cold, empty, and an uninviting environment.

you mean exactly what Don Mills feels like?
or even better yet, Bayview? now thats an empty station.

but seriously, they say (TTC) that there building the stations to accomadate proposed ridership amounts in 25 years.

I used to go to all the monthly commission meetings, but I work fulltime now, so no time to go to them.

 

[Asterix]

I also don't understand how people like Justin, with all due respect, differentiate between "York Region Riders" and "Toronto Riders." If you were to somehow ban people with 905 addresses (business or home) from TTC subways I suggest ridership would drop substantially. They're all TRANSIT riders. Though I understand TTC is a Toronto-funded system at the end of the day, take "York Region Riders" out of the equation and TTC's cashbox revenue takes a big hit. That's their contribution.

I think the problem lies in that passenger revenue alone (presumably even if you were to include parking and advertising) does not cover the operating cost.

To operate the subway beyond the Toronto borders wold cost the TTC more than they would receive from those York Region Riders via the farebox. The difference is made up by the TTC subsidy which comes from the city of Toronto taxpayers.

It's one thing to fund your neighbour's ride on the TTC when you know they are also contributing to the subsidy via their own property tax, it's another to ask Toronto citizens to contribute their property tax money to subsidize someone riding the subway in York Region when that York Region rider isn't making a similar contribution.

I believe TTC estimates are that there would be an annual operating shortfall of $10 million for the extension beyond Steeles.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I appreciate what you're saying but it all gets abstract at some point.

Firstly, because people take multiple transit systems across multiple borders all the time now. Of course, beyond what those people put in the farebox, someone from the 905 who works in 416 (and vice versa) contributes to the economy where they work, hits the local restaurant at lunch etc. etc.

Of course the TTC and all transit systems also run internal routes that lose money, subsidized by larger routes.

I wouldn't argue that York Region residents shouldn't contribute in some way. But I think that has to take part of a larger (ie Metrolinx-wide) look at how transit is funded, how fares should work etc. In the meantime, I don't think the argument here is that much different from a driver who doesn't see why his taxes should fund someone else's bus ride, or even a subway rider who wonders why s/he should pay for some bus route through Rosedale, or the Sheppard subway or whatever. It's just how the system works.

 

[Second_in_pie]

The biggest drain on the TTC's operating costs is running the bus routes.
IIRC, the subways themselves make money. The big drain on the TTC is running all the bus routes to ferry people to the subway and otherwise throughout the city. York Region riders are riders that have an independent cost to get to the TTC's system, whereupon they might pay parking fees and pay to use the subway system. It's YRT that's taking the big hit in bussing people to the stations, while the TTC just gets an extra fare that they didn't have to bus around.

 

[nfitz]

I don't understand....why do they have to recover "the extra expense?" Do they have to cover the extra expense of going to Finch and Steeles?

TTC operating costs are funded mostly from the fare box, but the extra is 100% funded by the City of Toronto. The government of Ontario used to provide funding for operations, but McGuinty eliminated it for 2010.

The city receives most of it's money from property taxes. Those living north of Steeles aren't paying property taxes to TTC, so any additional cost beyond farebox recovery north of Steeles should be paid either by Region of York, or by increased fares. Presumably TTC will eventually identify the additional cost, and will ask York Region to pay it. If York Region refused, they'd simply raise the entrance cost for those 2 stations, and require passes using those stations to have a higher cost (or perhaps the express sticker ... or something).

Seems pretty simple to me ...

 

[Darwinkgo]

^ the point others have tried to make is that the marginal cost of a rider out in York Region is likely going to be lower than a marginal rider in Toronto proper since they aren't being delivered to the station by a TTC feeder bus. As long as they have to pay TTC fare, and there is enough of them, the north of Steeles crowd should be a operational funding positive.