Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

I looked at the TTC PDFs which were posted and found the renderings interesting but... when I think about some of those stations a little more (i.e. Sheppard West), I wonder who's actually going to be the "regular riders" at those stations? For special events at PDP sure, but what commuter needs to go to those areas? I actually last went to the PDP area in the middle of a business day and I felt it was pretty deserted except for teenagers and new immigrants at the DriveTest centre.
 
TTC operating costs are funded mostly from the fare box, but the extra is 100% funded by the City of Toronto. The government of Ontario used to provide funding for operations, but McGuinty eliminated it for 2010.

The city receives most of it's money from property taxes. Those living north of Steeles aren't paying property taxes to TTC, so any additional cost beyond farebox recovery north of Steeles should be paid either by Region of York, or by increased fares. Presumably TTC will eventually identify the additional cost, and will ask York Region to pay it. If York Region refused, they'd simply raise the entrance cost for those 2 stations, and require passes using those stations to have a higher cost (or perhaps the express sticker ... or something).

Seems pretty simple to me ...
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I think your funding calculations are a bit off.
Firstly, McGuinty has nothing to do with this. Mike Harris cut the operations funding over a decade ago. Nothing changed this year.
Secondly, I stand to be corrected but I believe something like 75% of TTC revenue comes from the farebox. (Which is crazy, but that's what it is.)
So, when you include advertising and parking funds, it's a real minority of funding coming from property taxes.
Thirdly, your entire argument about what York Region should pay, and what would happen if they refused is rendered moot by what I posted previously: The project IS operating under the assumption the TTC will pay ALL operational costs and get ALL of the revenue. So if someone boards the subway in Vaughan after parking their car, the TTC gets all that money. That's just what the deal is, whether Toronto taxpayers like it or not.

I mean, if York Region is going to pay the costs, does that mean it will be YRT people manning the booths in Vaughan? Should the TTC drivers get off so YRT people can drive the subway for 2 stops?

It seems simple when you lay out a certain way, but it's not really. I could argue that a Toronto resident who takes YRT to work in, say, Markham, should have to pay a fare when they board at Finch Station and then another when they cross Steeles, since they're not paying taxes in York Region. That SEEMS simple, but it doesn't really make sense, does it?
 
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TJ O'Pootertoot said:
Firstly, McGuinty has nothing to do with this. Mike Harris cut the operations funding over a decade ago. Nothing changed this year.
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??? Yes it has. Harris did cut operations funding back in 1995 or so. McGuinty has been contributing ad-hoc to operating funding for a few years ... however not this year, and he had refused to commit to funding in future years. This has been extensively reported, and we have discussed it here.
 
Seriously though, I don't understand why they are being built so big?
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Dude, it makes perfect sense... raise the price to deter us from building more subways in the future.
 
^^

you smart@sses... stations are big because they want to provide rooms for future increases in raidership, as in 10-15 years from now.
 
UD2 said:
^^

you smart@sses... stations are big because they want to provide rooms for future increases in raidership, as in 10-15 years from now.
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In their defense, these stations will not see anywhere near the ridership of the busiest downtown stations, which are much more compact. Don't get me wrong, I think the downtown stations could have been slightly bigger will taller ceilings for a less cramped and potentially grander feel but a line of airport terminal scaled stations would look ridiculous. I'm sure the architecture will be great given the talent behind it and I'm a firm believer in the value of subway station architecture but the scale can't be that big for these suburban stations.

Unless you were being sarcastic...
 
These new stations are not that big. The bulk of the size people keep talking about is air space... it doesn't cost more to have more air, it costs more to support more weight and structure. The bulk of the stations are station boxes and look large because of high ceilings. High ceilings underground for cut and cover construction REDUCES costs because you already built the supporting wall to dig it out and the resulting structure doesn't need to be built to hold 20ft of dirt above.
 
The complaint about the size have nothing to do with the high ceilings but rather the unnecessary large mezzanine levels and open space around the stations. They should have been designed with minimals surface footprints to encourage buildings to be constructed on top or adjacent to them. The waste also is attributable to the useless bid terminals at finch west and the separate bus terminals at steeled west. Each terminal is space that could have been sold to a developer to build an office or residential building to boost ridership. Instead we will be left with 6 more Downsview stations, while beautiful, they cost a lot of money to maintain and squander large pieces of land that could be used to intensify and improve ridership.
 
Sheppard West is oversized but it has a GO station in it as well. Finch West is a fairly normal size with a bus terminal it isn't much bigger than Coxwell station once it gets its second exit. York U Station is mostly underground and not overly big. Steeles has a large surface footprint but most of that is public space and not buildings... they definitely could have designed something cheaper though here. The stations northward are mostly paid by the province and York Region. Vaughan Centre station is the grandest of all but that is probably because it is Vaughan's showpiece.
 
After fifty years of complaining about Toronto's subway stations as being bland little holes in the ground, now we are complaining that they aren't bland enough, little enough, and aren't just holes in the ground. The stations on the extension are designed by notable architects, and say that transit is important as city-building, not just for moving X number of bodies. They say that Toronto aspires to something more than the cheapest bottom line. Sorry lead82, but this kind of thinking has resulted in much of what's wrong with our cities, and in their being far from the world's most interesting, no matter how high our quality of life.
 
I want large, and lovely stations. Subways are a huge investment, and I want to see that investment look nice. The irony is, these stations are actually designed to cost less! High ceilings means less concrete to pour, and less dirt to cover the station.
 
Please re-read what I said. I have nothing against making stations beautiful. My issue was with a lack of co-ordination to make better use if the surface area around the station. The waste I mentioned was in the useless mezzanine levels. I would much rather they spend the money to make the platform space wider and to provide escalators in both directions at each exit for improved passenger flow. As for the bus terminals, it was the TTC that suggested the separate bus terminals at Steeles. I would have loved to see large stations built downtown and especially at the transfer stations. The issue is the TTC brain trust that mismanages money and spends billions on suburban extensions while neglecting the dense inner city and downtown which would be a much better investment in our transit network. Yes, politicians funded this extension over the DRL, but it was the TTC that put it at the top of it's priority, while the DRL is not even a priority! That is the absurdity of how this city plans it's transit.
 
In actual news, the first major contract, for Sheppard West Station and tunnelling up to Finch, is now out for tender. There are pretty detailed descriptions of each work package at that link.

I'm guessing it'll be $290 M.
 
The artwork at surface level at Vaughan Centre looks amazing (page 16), while platform level (page 17) looks surprisingly dull.

I hope the artists behind the LCD art at York University's made sure the TTC signed a contract to maintain the piece like Michael Hayden later did with his pieces. Otherwise, the TTC will probably do what it did to Arc en Ciel in time.

Even to this day, they have little respect for their collection. Often, it's not even a matter of money but common sense:



I wonder what are they going to use to remove tape glue on this painted mural? Paint thinner?
 
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