Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

[Edward Skira]

Sheppard Station and Finch Station were both built when there was nothing surrounding them but single family dwellings. But Finch quickly began pulling people from the entire north end of the city. VMC Station will do the same immediately. And over time the density next to the station will grow just as it has at Finch and Sheppard over the last 40 years.

 

[Electrify]

Jane and Hwy 7 is as close to nothing as you can get.

And I considerably doubt that Vaughan Metropolitan Centre will be some hustle bustle downtown-style CBD. History tells us it’s not going to happen. Etobicoke City Centre, North York City Centre, Scarborough Town Centre...all were supposed to be thronging mixed-used business districts with expected employment and residential density well above what exists today. It’s well known that they didn’t meet expectations, but at least they were built within or near areas of pre-existing neighbourhoods complete with sidewalks for those opting a non-autocentric transportation mode. The area around VMC and 407 stations is surrounded by miles of anything but. The subway should be open by next year, yet UT shows me there are currently only three development projects planned or u/c near VMC. That doesn’t sound like a “metropolitan centre”, particularly one worthy of the costliest of all transit modes: deep underground high frequency heavy rail.

The quadrant from Weston to Dufferin and Rutherford to Steeles is almost 40 square km of industrial and commercial warehouses. It’s unprecedented for Toronto’s rapid transit system to be extended into such an area, and is nothing like the small strip of factories and yards surrounding the SRT in Scarborough.

Scarborough and Etobicoke, yes (though they are finally getting better). But North York Centre?! The largest concentration of condos on the continent isn't enough?

 

[innsertnamehere]

north york centre is a huge driver of demand. HUGE.

 

[44 North]

Sheppard Station and Finch Station were both built when there was nothing surrounding them but single family dwellings. But Finch quickly began pulling people from the entire north end of the city. VMC Station will do the same immediately. And over time the density next to the station will grow just as it has at Finch and Sheppard over the last 40 years.

At least Finch and Sheppard had the single family dwellings prior to the subway. VMC station has a Dave and Busters, 40sq km of warehouses, and nary a sidewalk to be seen.

north york centre is a huge driver of demand. HUGE.

That's all well and good. But the fact of the matter is that NYCC was supposed to have 3x as much employment and be a CBD. Unfortunately its actual employment growth from 1986-2006... eight hundred jobs. Yes the spine of condos along Yonge is impressive, although the same can't be said about ECC or STC.

Perhaps the swath of industrial around the Concord freight yard will be easier to develop since it doesn't have preexisting stable residential neighbourhoods (and the inevitable NIMBYism) like that found around NYCC, ECC, or STC...but I doubt it. This extension to Vaughan will just be another example of a poor investment, and diverting of precious capital away from projects that actually would benefit.

 

[crs1026]

There will certainly be parking lots up there, and the terminus is very close to the 400 and 407. Being able to hop on the subway that far north may be a real incentive to not drive down into the city. Also, some of the York U ridership that arrives by transit will be coming south by subway.....far fewer buses reaching Steeles.

- Paul

 

[gweed123]

There will certainly be parking lots up there, and the terminus is very close to the 400 and 407. Being able to hop on the subway that far north may be a real incentive to not drive down into the city. Also, some of the York U ridership that arrives by transit will be coming south by subway.....far fewer buses reaching Steeles.

- Paul

Indeed. It may also be a big driver for VIVA's Highway 7 service, given that it will have a direct connection to the subway. Hopefully the Spadina extension will be able to reverse some of the decline in ridership that YRT has been having. I just hope that YRT reconfigures their system effectively to funnel people efficiently into VMC Station.

 

[44 North]

Everything this extension will achieve for Vaughan could've been had using a less-expensive, SRT-style elevated 'light' rapid transit system.

As for any benefit to long-haul commuters who rely on station parking...this could've been achieved with improvements to the Barrie line, its current stations, and adding a station at Hwy 7. Or investment for the inevitable spur that will be built off the Kitchener line to Woodbridge.

 

[drum118]

There will certainly be parking lots up there, and the terminus is very close to the 400 and 407. Being able to hop on the subway that far north may be a real incentive to not drive down into the city. Also, some of the York U ridership that arrives by transit will be coming south by subway.....far fewer buses reaching Steeles.

- Paul

That was the thinking of MTO and the government back in 2008.

They knew it made no sense to take the subway pass York other than seeing great vast parking lots for the 400 drivers to use than drive to the city core.

It will take 25+ years to develop this area for high density.

A few of us were talking at a TTC meeting last year or was that year before and said wait tell the other shoe fall related to extra cost and the line not opening until 2017.

 

[gweed123]

Everything this extension will achieve for Vaughan could've been had using a less-expensive, SRT-style elevated 'light' rapid transit system.

As for any benefit to long-haul commuters who rely on station parking...this could've been achieved with improvements to the Barrie line, its current stations, and adding a station at Hwy 7. Or investment for the inevitable spur that will be built off the Kitchener line to Woodbridge.

The subway extension to York University IMO was completely justified. Vaughan saw that there was going to be a subway expanded practically to their doorstep, and they seized the opportunity to use it as the focal point for a new downtown.

Just because Toronto isn't able to get its shit together when it comes to figuring out what to build next doesn't mean that everyone else has to wait around too. The City of Vaughan and York Region identified that project as a priority and one with the greatest odds of actually happening, and went for it. The other improvements you mentioned, specifically the GO improvements, would have been almost completely outside of Vaughan and York Region's control when it came to timelines, not to mention funding.

And it's not like Vaughan stole any funding from somewhere else. The project was financed independently of any other transit projects (unlike Transit City, which was bundled), and since Toronto didn't pay for anything north of Steeles, good on Vaughan for ponying up their own dough and convincing the Province and the Feds to back the project.

 

[salsa]

I considerably doubt that Vaughan Metropolitan Centre will be some hustle bustle downtown-style CBD. History tells us it’s not going to happen. Etobicoke City Centre, North York City Centre, Scarborough Town Centre...all were supposed to be thronging mixed-used business districts with expected employment and residential density well above what exists today.

Those areas may not be downtown style CBDs, but the subway stations that serve them are all very well used. I would expect the same result for VMC station, even if VMC itself doesn't become a bustling downtown.

 

[ksun]

What? I suggest taking a look on google maps. The entire Spadina extension route is incredibly low-density, some of it even actually is farmers field.

The strength of this extension comes from connecting bus routes.

that low density starts as south as Dupont station. There doesn't seem to be any building over 4 stories nearby, which is extremely weird - we build these expensive subway stations and surround them with 2 story houses.

 

[salsa]

that low density starts as south as Dupont station. There doesn't seem to be any building over 4 stories nearby, which is extremely weird - we build these expensive subway stations and surround them with 2 story houses.

I guess you've never been to St Clair West station, where there are many high rises over 4 storeys. Not that it matters anyway, because it's the bus connections that generate most of the ridership. Every station on Danforth is low density, yet has high ridership. Who freaking cares that there are 2 storey houses nearby.

 

[ehlow]

Another ksun classic topic! He hates low rise housing, and 90% of the city is low rise housing.

 

[44 North]

The subway extension to York University IMO was completely justified. Vaughan saw that there was going to be a subway expanded practically to their doorstep, and they seized the opportunity to use it as the focal point for a new downtown.

IMO the extension into that particular area of Vaughan set a terrible precedent, and played a leading role in getting the Scarb Subay voted in place of the logical SRT solution. Using a light mode for Scarb was the right solution 35 years ago, and refitting it for a standard light mode was the right one five years ago. But I can’t blame Scarberians for viewing the SRT and its disjointed journey along the backlots of industrial warehouses as being second-tier, considering they’d be the only area in the region to be served by such a system.

If I were a Vaughan or York Region resident, I would’ve supported a light RT mode if such an option were given. The greatest benefit of an affordable RT system is that it allows for the realistic prospect of any future extensions. That’s not happening with a heavy rail subway, especially one that's in a neighbouring city's control.

With the same levels of municipal, Prov, and Fed funding for Vaughan’s section of the extension (about $1bn), I feel that they could’ve gotten a way larger bang for their buck transit-wise. Look at KW, they’re building 36km of railed transit (19km of which is railed) for the same price.

Those areas may not be downtown style CBDs, but the subway stations that serve them are all very well used. I would expect the same result for VMC station, even if VMC itself doesn't become a bustling downtown.

Yes, but CBD or not, those stations were placed within a pre-existing built city – they already had a population within its catchment to draw from. Around VMC there’s a +2km radius of warehouses. Gary Webster issued a report that more or less displayed the trend of development tending to be scattered along arterials and not around stations. If such is the case, a more optimal method would be a system that offers lower per-km costs and reaches a higher number of people - in other words, a light mode.

For all the costs of these piecemeal extensions of our scant 3 lines, I feel that Toronto and its periphery cities could've built 2-3 multi-spurred belt lines

 

[salsa]

Another ksun classic topic! He hates low rise housing, and 90% of the city is low rise housing.

To him, anything less than 20 storeys is something you find in Dallas, and should be razed and redeveloped into cookie cutter condo towers.