Markster
Senior Member
19km.
The other 17km is BRT-lite. It will likely cost close to another $1bn to turn that section into railed transit. (It's shorter, but has 2 river crossings, and inflation)
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The other 17km is BRT-lite. It will likely cost close to another $1bn to turn that section into railed transit. (It's shorter, but has 2 river crossings, and inflation)
44 North
Senior Member
Thanks for catching that. I knew the Cambridge section wasn't to be LRT. But 19km is still notable as an example of what can be done with under $1bn and a patchwork of disjointed population centres/trip generators. Vancouver is getting 11km for $1.4bn with the Evergreen Line. And south of the border, they're building entire networks for the same money.
I support rapid, grade-separated transit. But one billion dollars for 2.4km and two stations doesn't sound like money well spent in my opinion.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
ksun
Senior Member
6, not 20 I'd say. Cookie cutter condos are your imagination by the way just to make me sound bad.
Sir Novelty Fashion
Senior Member
Sooooooooo how's that subway coming along?
ehlow
Senior Member
Slowly
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
I understand the "subway to nowhere" argument but I'd still add some caveats:
-VMC was designated as a provincial growth centre and had long been eyed as such so it's really not like they just drove the subway up to some random field and then figured out what to do. Yes, there isn't much there now but there is actually a larger plan going on.
-Meh, maybe an LRT would have been just fine but I'm not sure the economy of scale is there once you're already building the darned subway. One advantage of LRT (contrary to what the Fords think) is you get a presence on the street that encourages development etc. but that wasn't going to happen on Jane Street. The idea was to hook up to the node at the 407 (when the t-way is built!) and to foster transit-oriented-development in Vaughan. At worst, they're laudable goals and while I understand how it could have fuelled Scarborough's "me too!" neediness, I'll eat my hat if any councillor mentioned the word's "Transit-oriented-development" during that abominable debate.
-As for "Bang for the buck," York Region got another $1.4B for Viva so they're really doing OK. The only place they got stiffed was the Yonge line and $1B wouldn't have been enough to make a difference there.
Perfect, it ain't. And personally, I think Vaughan could have been more agressive with its density targets, but I still think calling it a "terrible precedent" is an unfair stretch. There's more than enough Stupid in Toronto for the city to wear the Scarborough mess-up on its own, without blaming other municipalities successfully working within a larger planning framework.
44 North
Senior Member
@TJ
Totally valid points. But I don't want to be labeled as someone who views VMC as "nowhere". It's somewhere...somewhere worthy of rapid transit. Just not somewhere requiring another city's costly heavy rail high frequency underground mass transit system. Yonge is an exception...Jane doesn't fit the bill IMO.
I was doing some basic research, and it seems Vaughan is also going large with its Vaughan Mills area. And they have a "secondary plan" to build another hub/growth centre. Considering it's only 3km north of Hwy 7, your points about extending the subway to VMC would be just as transferable to a future extension to Vaughan Mills. It's only 3km, so in a few short years a small extension of Line 1 naturally makes sense. Right? Wrong (IMO at least).
For that same $1bn put towards extending the subway north of Steeles to Hwy 7, I believe a Jane 'light' RT could've been built from Steeles to Concorde (and VMC), all the way up to Vaughan Mills at Rutherford, and beyond to Maple at Major Mack. And if the cards were played right, leftover funds could've been tied-in with another investment towards a 407 Transitway to Richmond Hill.
Although Vancouver uses Skytrain, I find the flexibility of the system fascinating - and a perfect solution to suburban transit issues. Underground, elevated, at-grade...enormous and disjointed distances bridged for a mere fraction of the price of costly Toronto (and now GTA) solutions.
Considering this is old news, I'm sure the idea of a Jane LRT and 407 LRT has been presented before. But I'll probably work on a map to show the possibilities of what $1bn or $2bn could've done for this area in place of a short subway extension to VMC.
Totally valid points. But I don't want to be labeled as someone who views VMC as "nowhere". It's somewhere...somewhere worthy of rapid transit. Just not somewhere requiring another city's costly heavy rail high frequency underground mass transit system. Yonge is an exception...Jane doesn't fit the bill IMO.
I was doing some basic research, and it seems Vaughan is also going large with its Vaughan Mills area. And they have a "secondary plan" to build another hub/growth centre. Considering it's only 3km north of Hwy 7, your points about extending the subway to VMC would be just as transferable to a future extension to Vaughan Mills. It's only 3km, so in a few short years a small extension of Line 1 naturally makes sense. Right? Wrong (IMO at least).
For that same $1bn put towards extending the subway north of Steeles to Hwy 7, I believe a Jane 'light' RT could've been built from Steeles to Concorde (and VMC), all the way up to Vaughan Mills at Rutherford, and beyond to Maple at Major Mack. And if the cards were played right, leftover funds could've been tied-in with another investment towards a 407 Transitway to Richmond Hill.
Although Vancouver uses Skytrain, I find the flexibility of the system fascinating - and a perfect solution to suburban transit issues. Underground, elevated, at-grade...enormous and disjointed distances bridged for a mere fraction of the price of costly Toronto (and now GTA) solutions.
Considering this is old news, I'm sure the idea of a Jane LRT and 407 LRT has been presented before. But I'll probably work on a map to show the possibilities of what $1bn or $2bn could've done for this area in place of a short subway extension to VMC.
Many of the points I was going to make in my reply. I'm glad I read ahead so I didn't duplicate, haha.
44 North, you're right in a certain sense, that that money could have been potentially better spent somewhere else. But York Region got almost all it was asking for anyway. It got all the VIVA it wanted, and it got the Spadina Subway extension. One could argue that that money could have been better spent on a Yonge extension, but Yonge has a whole host of capacity concerns that the Spadina side doesn't have. The Spadina extension, unlike the Yonge extension, isn't predicated on any associated infrastructure project in Toronto (the DRL).
The extension to VMC, for what VMC is now, may appear out of place. But consider that it's a subway extension to a Provincially-designated growth centre, terminates at the E-W transit axis of all of York Region, and is easily accessible from two of the busiest highways in the GTHA. In theory, it is a very logical terminus point.
Building the extension as LRT or ICTS would have created a scenario in which people would have rode the Highway 7 VIVA to VMC, transferred onto the LRT for 4 or 5 stops, and then transferred again to the subway. That's exactly the kind of PITA transfer that people in Scarborough are trying to avoid. Realistically, Highway 7 is going to be the northernmost E-W transit axis for the foreseeable future. Extending N-S transit services to terminate at that intersection point makes sense. There's no need for some intermediary service between the Northern Toronto transit axis (Sheppard/Finch) and the York Region transit axis (Highway 7). All that does is add an unnecessary transfer layer for southbound passengers.
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nfitz
Superstar
At $1.4 billion for only 10.9 km, that's nearly $130 million per kilometre - and that doesn't include vehicles, storage, or maintenance facilities. Cheaper than underground subway perhaps, but I wouldn't call it a mere fraction.
Compare to the proposed grade-separated SRT (as LRT) extension from Sheppard to Malvern Centre which Metrolinx estimated to be $386 million for about 2 km, including vehicles. $193 million per kilometre. It's the same ballpark. (the remaining 10 km of line were planned to have 48 LRVs, which go for about $6.5 million each - meaning the vehicles alone are about $30 million per kilometre!)
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
How is SkyTrain particularly flexible? It's not any more flexible than heavy rail systems. The ultimate mode for flexibility is light rail. Light rail can be used for subway, elevated transit, 100% exclusive at-grade ROW, mainland rail, partially exclusive street median ROW and mixed traffic. Wherever you'd want to put rapid transit, light rail can go there. Skytrain is limited to subway, 100% exclusive at-grade ROW or elevated guideways.
JayBeeGooner
Active Member
And Skytrain is limited to one manufacturer, Bombardier. Yes, other companies can build LIM powered trains, but it'll be at a premium. Given a choice, I'll take Light rail over Skytrain any day.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
And I forget the timeline of how it all unfolded at this point but there was also going to be a Jane LRT as part of Transit City before it got curtailed. I suspect that would have been perfect to extend up to Vaughan Mills and even Wonderland. I don't see the need for the subway to go there. Which brings us to this good point about why the current terminus is the logical one:
Well said. Of course this all applies x1000 to the Yonge extension and everyone who thinks that should stop at Steeles should read it but I can fight about that in the appropriate forum
I understand the "another city's transit system" argument but it still irks me. I think/hope the way transit is funded and governed is going to change a lot in the next few years and render this point moot. Right now, yeah, it's TO taxpayers paying for operating it but the riders just want to get where they're going and we need to think beyond the lines on the map. I know some people say, "Well that's way it is now and so I don't wanna pay for a line to some other city!" I get that but I choose to say, "I think change if a foregone conclusion so let's get ahead of the game and start by building the lines to where they need to go."
Anyway, it's going to be Vaughan's job to show people in Toronto that the subway is not going to nowhere and not only there because of Greg Sorbara. No reason that area can't develop nicely over the decade or two but I know they'll have to earn it convince some people it was a worthy project.
ehlow
Senior Member
Exactly, even if you want an elevated & automated transit line, light rail is the way to go. Especially since we're already building a light rail line (Eglinton). It also has much more widespread use around the world than Skytrain (Vancouver's probably the biggest user of Skytrain/LIM).
Re: Vaughan, hopefully those who want to build large offices in the suburbs are attracted to this location. If a company is building a large office out in the suburbs, I'd rather it be near transit.
44 North
Senior Member
I'm aware of how Skytrain differs...well, maybe not fully. I just mean 'flexibility' in how Vancouver manages to build extensively by being adaptive and using various combinations of elevated, ROW, and underground. Realistically I'd prefer a standard LRT mode.
I hastily made a map last night. It looked a bit bare, so I may've gone wild by adding more to it. But I think it helps carry the point about options in place of continual extensions to our meager subway system farther and farther into the boonies. The subway is going to have to terminate somewhere, so the region may as well put in place a separate system that is more realistic, affordable, and adaptive to their needs.
If you look at the 2.4km between Steeles and VMC compared with the enormous breadth of York Region, or even Vaughan itself - it's tiny. $1bn to fill that gap is an enormous amount of money.
I originally thought it wise to have Yonge terminate at RH when I made this map, but then figured it may not be all that smart. Not so much because it's "Toronto's subway", but rather a RH/DRL may be an alternative to Yonge riders - and that a Yonge 'light' RT may work as part of a combined system with RTs along the 407 Transitway and up Jane. For the costs of extending the subway to VMC and RH, York Region and the GTA in general can get a much better investment by going with a light mode. Not to mention reaching a larger number of people and their own future growth centres.
I hastily made a map last night. It looked a bit bare, so I may've gone wild by adding more to it. But I think it helps carry the point about options in place of continual extensions to our meager subway system farther and farther into the boonies. The subway is going to have to terminate somewhere, so the region may as well put in place a separate system that is more realistic, affordable, and adaptive to their needs.
If you look at the 2.4km between Steeles and VMC compared with the enormous breadth of York Region, or even Vaughan itself - it's tiny. $1bn to fill that gap is an enormous amount of money.
Well said. Of course this all applies x1000 to the Yonge extension and everyone who thinks that should stop at Steeles should read it but I can fight about that in the appropriate forum
I originally thought it wise to have Yonge terminate at RH when I made this map, but then figured it may not be all that smart. Not so much because it's "Toronto's subway", but rather a RH/DRL may be an alternative to Yonge riders - and that a Yonge 'light' RT may work as part of a combined system with RTs along the 407 Transitway and up Jane. For the costs of extending the subway to VMC and RH, York Region and the GTA in general can get a much better investment by going with a light mode. Not to mention reaching a larger number of people and their own future growth centres.
