W. K. Lis
Superstar
Centennial Park, in Etobicoke, was a garbage dump in its previous life. The King City garbage dump could also be. So, if Central Park in New York City has subways stations, it could as well. In the future.
Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group
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Centennial Park, in Etobicoke, was a garbage dump in its previous life. The King City garbage dump could also be. So, if Central Park in New York City has subways stations, it could as well. In the future.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
Yes it could, but 416ers will complain if other extensions within the city don't take place if 905 extensions like that do instead.
BMO
Senior Member
I think if the York Region was smart, they'd ask Vaughan Mills, and Canada's wonderland, for some money to help extend the subway line, considering it would be a huge boom to their business making Wonderland and Vmills just a 45 or so subway ride from downtown. Not bad, definitely beats fighting your way through traffic on the 400. I recalle this past summer Vaughan mills promoting some sort of shuttle bus from Union station to Vaughan Mills, they also had some promoters handing out gift cards at the CN Tower. If the line was extended to Major Mackenzie it would also serve the proposed Vaughan Hospital.
BMO
Senior Member
Why would they complain, Toronto would not pay a cent towards the further extension...
Swarley
Active Member
Not for capital costs maybe, but there's still operating and maintenance costs, not to mention that fewer seats would be available when the train actually gets to Toronto.. for those people that paid for the line in the first place.
This is a terrible idea, expanding GO capacity is a much more cost efficient and quicker way to get people downtown from Vaughan. Save the subways for areas that already have density.
Asterix
Active Member
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
We've already heard this argument 20X here and on the Yonge thread.
It ignores a kajillion things, including that a lot of the people already getting on the train at Downsview/Finch are coming from York Region and that the people who get on north of Steeles will pay a fare (and/or parking), mitigating the operating/maint costs of the extension - as if another 5km of operating will mean a major budget impact.
More significantly, the logical extension of this argument is that NO transit line should be extended, because the people already using it won't get seats.
I'd agree with the general idea of building subways where there is already density but at Major Mac you have two of the biggest tourist destinations in the GTA (and a fair amount of sprawl) and a planned hospital. That's not bad. It wouldn't be an extension to "nowhere" but rather to a place with significant, planned density.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
There's also the issue of taking provincial and federal money from the same transit funding pot as the rest of the region. VCC is only projected to pull in 5000 riders or so a day. Building a subway at $200-300 million/km to an area that is going to likely struggle to produce subway level demand is going to be seen as an incredible waste. If you look at the region it's not as simple as providing one station to serve the condos, Vaughan Mills, and Wonderland. They are all widely separated from each other.
The area screams for an LRT line. It is/will be a medium density area (despite the few high rises being built), that is better served by LRT. LRT allows for closer stop spacing to hit each destination with it's own stop. Finally, the cost of LRT will allow service to extend to residents north of Major Mackenzie.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
And yet Sheppard E is getting an LRT line when that region has much more current (and future) transit demand, density, and destinations.
Furthermore it's not like these destinations are right next to each other. The walk from Vaughan mills to the Wonderland entrance is almost 2 km about the same distance as walking from Dundas Square to Yonge/Bloor (and passing 4 subway stations along the way). There is simply no argument that a single subway station (in absence of supplementary transport) can serve such a large region.
With Metrolinx taking over some kind of directive role in transit planning for the GTA it's not enough to say that York Region asked for a subway to VCC (and further to Major Mackenzie) while Toronto asked for an LRT along Sheppard E. It is Metrolinx's job (or should be) to now look at individual transit agencies plans and analyze the best way to distribute funds to benefit the whole region. York Region might want a subway but Metrolinx may look at the situation and decide that there is a better way to deploy resources.
nfitz
Superstar
Whose to say they won't simply boost fares for those travelling past York University, and collect a big surcharge. This is what STM does for those in Montreal that travel to Laval. If there's 50,000 riders a day past York, then $1 a trip should cover it. Say $2 extra to enter Vaughan Centre or Highway 407 stations.
Asterix
Active Member
Out of curiousity, how would you implement that on the TTC subway? Have a collector walk through the train upon leaving York?
Would you setup a fare collection system at the exits to the new stations? How would that handle people who travel between two north-of-Steeles stations?
What if passengers are using tokens or passes? Do they have to contribute cash on top?
There's several ways it could be done, but none pointedly obvious to me.
Further, I believe the current bus routes north of Steeles are operated by the TTC under contract to York Region. The subway would still be operated by the TTC for the TTC. It would require a change in their fare structure, policies and collection mechanisms.
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Electrify
Senior Member
They could always short turn trains. In York Region, the Viva Blue has two main branches (3 technically, but the third one is not important). The main branch goes from Finch station to Newmarket terminal, while an additional rush hour branch goes from Finch station to Bernard terminal in Richmond Hill. Likewise, the TTC could run one branch from say Eglinton to Eglinton West alongside trains running from Finch to Vaughan.
Asterix
Active Member
In the morning rush the TTC currently short turns trains at St Clair W.
In the near future they plan to extend the short turns to Glencairn (can't be Eglinton W since there is no pocket track).
Once the Vaughan extension is built, the short turn will be extended to Downsview.
There is too much demand on the Yonge line north of Eglinton to justify short turns there. There are though a half dozen or so 'gap trains' they feed south from the yard at Davisville to handle the rush.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Well, firstly, it's not a zero sum game. I support an extension of Sheppard and, for that matter, think it should go to Downsview.
I don't think there's a simple answer, assuming there's an infinite pot of money but I do think there is some value, if you really want to curb sprawl in having some sort of high-order transit in place for a new, pedestrian/transit-oriented community.
Fair enough. I'm not saying I've done an EA for such an extension. In theory I suppose I'd advocate a station under Vaughan Mills with some sort of shuttle but you are correct that something like an LRT north of Hwy. 7 could make as much, if not more, sense. If it WAS a zero sum game, I'd happily trade the Yonge extension to Hwy. 7 for anything further on Spadina - that seems like more of a long-term goal if anything.
We certainly hope we'll do that, and it should be what they are doing for the remaining Big Move projects as we speak.
The VCC was pre-Metrolinx and while we'd all like to see some sort of objective planning, clearly politics is going to enter the fray at some point. Sheppard being an LRT over a subway is a case in point.
Metrolinx has to defer some authority to the actual municipalities and Toronto wrote "LRT" on whatever napkin they drew up Transit City on, so that's that.
A further VCC extension isn't even in their 25-year plan so I doubt you have anything to worry about, unless some Vaughan developers decide to foot the bill themselves.
Someone can correct me but I'm pretty sure the plan is to short turn half the Spadina trains at Steeles, no?
That was definitely in the planning literature for the Yonge extension.
nfitz
Superstar
Same way they do in Montreal. You only pay the extra on journey's starting in Region of York; and you set the rate at double what is necessary if you charged in both directions.
No, you don't need to monitor exits; they don't do that in Montreal.
I really can't imagine too many of those trips ... but like in Montreal, they have to pay the higher rate. Much of TTC operations is paid by City of Toronto taxpayers, and those who regularily do those trips won't be paying any City of Toronto taxes - nor would their employers.
Presumably much in the same way that TTC currrently deals with this for the buses with the premium fare.