Toronto Social at Church + Dundas | 164.89m | 52s | Pemberton | RAW Design

I was just in Philadelphia last week and the topic of Toronto came up. Frowning, one of the Philadelphians said, "I just visited Toronto. It was very... generic." And several others nodded in agreement.

Whatever you think of the aesthetic merits of the old buildings versus the new one, I think it's clear that the new building will definitely reinforce that "generic" feeling.
 
WislaHD said:
What would you like to do about it? Subsidize Tacos 101?
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Reductio ad absurdum. Nice job.

Maybe if this building actually had a decent street front, or if we ensured that condo retail was designed to permit independent retail, you'd have a point. But this is my neighbourhood, and I have little faith that this investor-driven condo with a shitty podium guaranteed to keep out anything interesting will do anything to improve it.
 
Silence&Motion said:
I was just in Philadelphia last week and the topic of Toronto came up. Frowning, one of the Philadelphians said, "I just visited Toronto. It was very... generic." And several others nodded in agreement.

Whatever you think of the aesthetic merits of the old buildings versus the new one, I think it's clear that the new building will definitely reinforce that "generic" feeling.
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I'd take "generic" over these shacks that look like they came straight out of a village in a developing nation.

Also someone from Philadelphia has no right to talk about the aesthetics of another city.
 
ShonTron said:
Reductio ad absurdum. Nice job.

Maybe if this building actually had a decent street front, or if we ensured that condo retail was designed to permit independent retail, you'd have a point. But this is my neighbourhood, and I have little faith that this investor-driven condo with a shitty podium guaranteed to keep out anything interesting will do anything to improve it.
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Places like Tacos 101 don't go after leases in premium newly constructed retail spaces, is the point.

If we mandated independent retail in the podium, what would come in is some boutique store that people here still wouldn't like.
 
Silence&Motion said:
I was just in Philadelphia last week and the topic of Toronto came up. Frowning, one of the Philadelphians said, "I just visited Toronto. It was very... generic."
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sorry man English is not my first language, may I ask in what sense are you using "Generic" ?
 
Yegger said:
At the risk of sounding like we`re beating a dead horse, I have to throw in my 2cents. I can`t believe that our standards are so low that we consider this "character". I'm all for preservation and revitalization of aging structures but come on, there is very little potential for these shacks to contribute to Toronto's identity in any renovated form. We can make a case for long-lost, salvageable buildings in so many other redevelopments across the city but this isn't one of them.View attachment 164069View attachment 164069
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Inclined to agree. These buildings are the very definition of a sketchy neighbourhood.
 
ushahid said:
sorry man English is not my first language, may I ask in what sense are you using "Generic" ?
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Well, as I mentioned, the word was used by someone else. I interpreted it to mean aesthetically boring or bland.

holographic plastic said:
Also someone from Philadelphia has no right to talk about the aesthetics of another city.
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Sheesh! No need to get defensive.
 
holographic plastic said:
And also let's be real, if they had kept the old buildings for the podium you all would have complained about how it was a "facadectomy" or whatever made up word y'all use. I've been following this website for long enough to know the reactions things have.
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You are over-simplifying: there is very little on UrbanToronto that everyone agrees on. To declare that "you all would have complained" reduces the constant arguing on here to one side of the fight only.
ShonTron said:
Urban Toronto will always be a place where people will rejoice if any project is built, no matter how dull it might be, what businesses or residents might be displaced, or how poorly it meets the street, as long as it’s TALL!
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The quote is true for some members of UrbanToronto, but only a few. Most members hold more nuanced views than that, although it looks like a number of the tear-it-all-down types have gathered for this particular party.

What I mourn (besides one particularly good taco joint) is the loss of the intimate scale here, not the physical qualities of these particular buildings: these were not gems. The real problem here, as stated by some others, is that we are getting what appears to be another very bland podium that will likely only and up with more of the same dull retailers that increasingly occupy our streets behind comparatively undifferentiated glass sheet fronts. Nothing I've seen so far of this building will improve the walk along Dundas—we're only getting two retail frontages on Dundas in the remake, down from four (nor get me that taco I want when I visit @ShonTron). Surely it's time that our street frontage standards were toughened to take sidewalk-level engagement into better account.

42
 
Nov 17
This corner as well the west corner needs to be torn down, as they have seen their days and need better sidewalks. Some of the existing retail should be offer first choice to return and fair rents based on how long they been there.

The sad thing is the fact what replace these buildings are worse than what was there in the first place.
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I understand the disappointment at the loss of intimate scale and unique retailers/businesses, but at what point do we realize that desperately trying to hold onto these unremarkable two and three storey buildings so close to downtown simply due to the businesses that occupy them is a hindrance to the development of the city?

You may not particularly enjoy how this development looks (in renders anyway), but it's just not realistic to keep these type of buildings so close to downtown because you'll miss buying tacos from a restaurant that once occupied them. This isn't Barrie, these type of buildings aren't going to last forever, and they shouldn't.

Also, I notice people on this website tend to be against developments for selfish/personal reasons in a lot of cases. No, a tower full of new housing shouldn't not be built because you're going to miss buying a coffee at your favourite independent cafe, sorry to say.
 
Jesus Christ dude. It's been explained several times (and you claim to "understand" it): it's not the actual buildings that we're lamenting. It's the loss of the kind of businesses which inhabit them. The economics of modern retail leasing mean that those businesses could not return here since they generally can't afford the rents that those new spaces command.

@interchange42 went into some good detail about the issues here but you've again just fully ignored things to plow through with your own bs. Talk about "selfish / personal"...
 
ProjectEnd said:
Jesus Christ dude. It's been explained several times (and you claim to "understand" it): it's not the actual buildings that we're lamenting. It's the loss of the kind of businesses which inhabit them. The economics of modern retail leasing mean that those businesses could not return here since they generally can't afford the rents that those new spaces command.

@interchange42 went into some good detail about the issues here but you've again just fully ignored things to plow through with your own bs. Talk about "selfish / personal"...
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I don't really care if these businesses can't afford rent in a similar location downtown. Not every business deserves to stick around, as harsh as that sounds. An increase in rent goes hand in hand with an increase in land value, which this development will ultimately bring. But hey, the now demolished shacks apparently had "character", which I guess by this websites standards is any building over 50 years old. Progress doesn't deserve to be slowed down or halted because you're sad that the businesses that existed here are now gone.
 
The best thing visually here is that the hideous apartment block to the east will be mostly blocked from view. For those of us of a certain age a, and may recall, isn't that where the roller rink was?:
 
holographic plastic said:
I don't really care if these businesses can't afford rent in a similar location downtown. Not every business deserves to stick around, as harsh as that sounds. An increase in rent goes hand in hand with an increase in land value, which this development will ultimately bring. But hey, the now demolished shacks apparently had "character", which I guess by this websites standards is any building over 50 years old. Progress doesn't deserve to be slowed down or halted because you're sad that the businesses that existed here are now gone.
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I guess my question then is what is your definition of 'progress'? Because a lot of what you describe ends up in anonymous, chain retail (Shoppers, banks, Starbucks, the like). Sure that's great for a pro-forma but it's deadening when executed on a large enough scale.
 
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