Toronto Ripley's Aquarium of Canada | 13.11m | 2s | Ripley Entertainment | B+H

[jn_12]

I don't think we want Toronto's waterfront to be exactly like Chicago's, literally speaking. This is more about a comparable degree of quality and scale, whether talking about Millennium Park vs City Place or the Shed vs the proposed Ripley's aquarium, or waterfront development overall.

But there are many other areas where we "outdo" Chicago. Every city is going to have areas where it is better or worse than others. Chicago's strongest aspect might be its waterfront and it might have the best waterfront in the world. Those are extremely high standards to set in my opinion, and while Toronto is a great city, you're always going to set yourself up for failure if you're looking to compare us to Chicago in this area.

Again, nobody here is talking 'literally'... and I can't help but feel you are simply apologizing for the inferiority of Toronto over Chicago on these things. As many things as Chicago has or has had going for it so has Toronto. We have experienced enormous prosperity in this city over the last 50 or 60 years, and the early post-war generations of Toronto did build big, did build with quality and did not have excuses about why they couldn't build subways or gorgeous new modernist buildings or the world's tallest tower and so on. We've also had our share of private investment and philanthropy, including the recently completed museums in Toronto that you cite... and as far as the AGO goes I wouldn't consider it second to anything in terms of quality and integrity, though the Dundas Street/Grange Park surroundings are another matter altogether!

But I think some people are talking literally. They want to know why we don't have a huge expansive park on the waterfront (ignoring the islands of course). I agree with everything you say here, but I'm just saying that Chicago's waterfront developed this way because of a lot of unique circumstances. Even Toronto's 50 or so years of prosperity probably doesn't compare to the growth/wealth of Chicago in the late 1800s/early 1900s during an era where public goods/investment was perhaps at its peak.

... but the watefront should be an asset for all to enjoy, locals and visitors alike. It isn't just the backdrop of a neighbourhood, it is the front face of the city. In Toronto we are leaving very little parkland or open public space on the water, choosing to go for development instead. Pretty boardwalks and lamps? Yes, but not the kind of vision for the Waterfront that we hoped would correct the mistakes already made.

I agree to an extent because I think more can and should be done. But I think it would be interesting to know how many Chicagoans actually use their park. I know in my experiences in Chicago the park is primarily a tourist spot. Locals everywhere tend to avoid tourist spots. It's kind of like Queen Victoria Park in Niagara Falls, which was built as a space for locals to enjoy the Falls, yet no one from Niagara goes there. It's very hard (and I wrote part of my Masters thesis on this issue) to create a space that is friendly to both locals and tourists. I think our waterfront kind of does a good job of this by acting primarily as a neighbourhood. Personally, I'd say the waterfront is no more for Torontonians to enjoy as Little Italy or St Lawrence or any other part of the city. And besides, we have the Islands as well.

I think you're missing the point. This is not a discussion of the waterfront per se, it is about the city's failure to provide for and maintain quality public spaces. We could just as easily be discussing Queen's Park or the fountains on University Avenue or hydro poles or any number of other issues. They are all part of the same problem. Why should we expect the waterfront to be any better, or any other space for that matter, if we do not address this problem and improve?

... and not to be a complete downer on Toronto either because there are some bright spots and there are some things we are doing well. Bloor Street is finally emerging as something worthy enough to be considered a high-end retail area. NPS is being restored to some of its former glory. Fort York may finally get a little of the attention it deserves... but these things are signposts that point to the direction we should be taking in Toronto. These things should be setting a standard, and hopefully they will!

I agree with you here as well. There isn't a sense of overt civic pride in our city and that needs to change.

Honestly, I think we're on the same page, but the point of my post above was that in the last day or two the conversation has had a tone of "why can't we have a waterfront like Chicago's?" and so I answered that question. If it's just a matter of bettercivic pride or design or better maintenance of our current infrastructure then that's fine and I'm on board (though I don't think the aquarium is the right launching point for such a discussion. I think it's fine for what it is/will be).

 

[jn_12]

Wonderful to know other people have a such an interest in the history of such public developments but Grant park didnt start getting planned 200 years ago Central park wasn't planned till 1857 and wasnt really finished til nearly 1890 in its entirety, and that is hailed as the start of northa american landscape design, under the guidance and design of Frederick Law Olmsted.

Unless wikipedia is lying Chicago officially designated the land which is now Gant Park as a park on April 29, 1844, naming it Lake Park. I didn't say that it was designed that year. The land was just designated as parkland that year. I should have said "nearly 200 years of planning" sorry for not being so specific but the point stands whether it's 167 years or 200.

 

[Tewder]

I agree with you here as well. There isn't a sense of overt civic pride in our city and that needs to change.

Honestly, I think we're on the same page, but the point of my post above was that in the last day or two the conversation has had a tone of "why can't we have a waterfront like Chicago's?" and so I answered that question. If it's just a matter of bettercivic pride or design or better maintenance of our current infrastructure then that's fine and I'm on board (though I don't think the aquarium is the right launching point for such a discussion. I think it's fine for what it is/will be).

Yes, I really didn't want this to devolve into a which city is better debate. I'd probably argue Toronto so what's the point?

You're right though, it's about the bigger picture. We need to do better but we can't until we fix whatever it is that is broken. The aquarium and the waterfront etc are details, important ones, but details nonetheless. If we're dreaming here, I'd love to see the inner harbour as the focus of Toronto's waterfront grandeur, with a refurbished Ontario Place (as you already suggested) and restored Malting Silo site, all connecting to the islands, harbourfront and the new Waterfront through ferry shuttles of some sort, and with monumental fountains rising out of the the waters, floodlit at night and with temporary moorings for boats during the day.... Ahhhhhh, it's fun to let go though isn't it???

 

[Landscape design ftw]

Unless wikipedia is lying Chicago officially designated the land which is now Gant Park as a park on April 29, 1844, naming it Lake Park. I didn't say that it was designed that year. The land was just designated as parkland that year. I should have said "nearly 200 years of planning" sorry for not being so specific but the point stands whether it's 167 years or 200.

Yeah well as someone who has been cought up in over exsageration on this forum I shouldnt be such a hypocrit on numbers haha.

jn_12 Makes several really good points. Something Ide like to expand on the idea of, is that we have migrated along way from the main topic of conversation being the aquarium. And I am more then happy to continue along this path, if we really want a big park we should never have cancelled the island tunnel, god dman I hate people for that shit, or have had the 1996 eglinton cross town line cancelled, the cost of cancelling both those projects actually came out to roughly 80% of what it would have cost to finish them, and now we would have an eglinton subway line and a tunnel to the island so way mroe visitors could go way mroe easily and it could be better taken care of.

It would honnestly probably be a good idea to use all the agreegate we'll be digging up for new subway lines to build a couple landing strips out in the humber harber a little farther off shore and build a new park where the current island air port is, and with toronto's docks and shipping hopefully making the move to st. mary's cement east towards port hope then we can just build a bridge. This is all dreamers talk and what not but damn it would be nice to see. I also like the idea of the CNE having a change of hands into a new park. it was at one time all grass and the site of the CNE, basically it was dumb as shit to build TFC's HBO stadium in the middle of what used to be the "international" tent grounds. The CNE has been comming to the princess gates for 100 + years so loosing that tradition would be one more tragedy in a long line of slights made agaisnt toronto's history. it would be nice to see the areas of cherry beach and its connection to tom thompson peninsula park improved. The trails and paths out to Tom thompson park are wonderful but incredably annoying to get to and I dont even think 80% of the city knows it's their, connecting it to center island would be a good idea atleast by bridge or something.

So to get back on topic with the aquarium, as one of my comments took us to the chicago thing, I think the aquarium should atleast try and reflect the style and theme of what the future of the whole waterfront area is tryign to look like, because the current design is thruoughly disapointing and very left of center.

 

[Torontovibe]

Show me anywhere in Canada like the southside of Chicago... Or the entire city of Detroit.

Having experienced the South Side of Chicago, by car and on foot, (Yes, I am quite the daredevil) I can guarantee you, there is no part of Toronto that even comes close to that kind of poverty, segregation and ugliness. I had 3 warnings of danger in about 5 minutes, from well meaning residents.

A lot of you guys tend to have Doug Ford syndrome, meaning you overlook what's good about our city and lust after what American's have. We have great potential on our waterfront.

I think Ontario Place is spectacular and has so much potential for greatness. I LOVE those floating pods and the park in general. It's so unique. Centre Island is another one-of-a-kind gem, right beside our downtown. How many large cities have something like that just minutes from downtown? What about the hugeness of The Leslie Street Spit and Rouge Park? Don't forget the Beauty of The Scarborough Bluffs. The buildings at the CNE are quite impressive too. Our waterfront is interesting to explore, with all those hidden spaces and Quays. The beaches is a nice place but it could be a magnificent beach with some work. Even our West Waterfront has some beautiful parks. Sure, there is lots of room for improvement but the potential is there. As for the aquarium, I was hoping for something much nicer and on the water but I guess we have to just settle for what we get. Hopefully, we will get another icon, besides Ontario Place, on our waterfront. We need some major tourist attractions and great public areas. Canada Square might be nice.

Of course, I don't expect greatness with Ford at the wheel but things can and will change, in time. All I see, is great potential.

 

[Landscape design ftw]

Man I am always so glad I live here rather than the states, America scares me.

 

[adma]

What book are you talking about? If your talking about Neuromancer then yes, yes I have. nearly a decade ago.

If you noticed in the post you responded to, my response was a link. If you clicked onto it, you'd have found this
http://www.chbooks.com/catalogue/concrete_toronto

Though given your present response and the nature of your posts, I wouldn't be surprised if you're headed for a ban of some sort...

 

[Tewder]

Having experienced the South Side of Chicago, by car and on foot, (Yes, I am quite the daredevil) I can guarantee you, there is no part of Toronto that even comes close to that kind of poverty, segregation and ugliness. I had 3 warnings of danger in about 5 minutes, from well meaning residents.

A lot of you guys tend to have Doug Ford syndrome, meaning you overlook what's good about our city and lust after what American's have.

Torontovibe, nobody is talking about Chicago's south side. I agree with you that we should be careful about comparisons with the US, which has a far wider and deeper diversity of socio-economic conditions than what we see in Canada. This shouldn't be an acceptance of their worse, however, or an approbation of our mediocrity. They are capable of better and so are we. As one of the largest and most prosperous cities in North America we do need to look at what we do wrong, as sensitive and challenging as this may be. Growth and development can be challenges too, and we've had an enormous degree of this in Toronto over the past ten or fifteen years... over the past fifty or sixty years really. This hasn't always been managed well, and our focus hasn't always been where it should be, and especially over the last decade or so of this growth. We have to check the apathy and the boosterism, at times, to maintain the right focus.

We have great potential on our waterfront.

No question... but this means there has been a lot of potential to squander too. I find it difficult to criticize Waterfront Development because it has evolved into such a piecemeal bureaucratic mess that has good parts but that has left many gaps over the years, the victim of changes in governing administrations, funding, the demands of development and so on... but none of this should ever have been allowed to happen. I hate to say it but we needed a dictator to get this done, to demand the impossible at all cost, i.e. mass transit lines to new areas, parkland to be protected in the face of the demands of developers and so on. Instead we couldn't even get Queen's Quay off the ground, and how long has it been now? We really can't blame Ford for this, however, but the fact that it now comes down to him is part of the problem. There are powerful interest groups involved in the Waterfront and the city needed to be in control of them, with the support of the province and the feds. Despite the photo ops this just didn't seem to happen.... but correct me if I'm wrong in all this because I'm not an expert. I'm just a citizen expecting and demanding results, puzzled why this doesn't seem to happen in Toronto when projects like this do happen elsewhere, and in places much smaller and less prosperous?

I think Ontario Place is spectacular and has so much potential for greatness. I LOVE those floating pods and the park in general. It's so unique. Centre Island is another one-of-a-kind gem, right beside our downtown. How many large cities have something like that just minutes from downtown? What about the hugeness of The Leslie Street Spit and Rouge Park? Don't forget the Beauty of The Scarborough Bluffs. The buildings at the CNE are quite impressive too. Our waterfront is interesting to explore, with all those hidden spaces and Quays. The beaches is a nice place but it could be a magnificent beach with some work. Even our West Waterfront has some beautiful parks. Sure, there is lots of room for improvement but the potential is there. As for the aquarium, I was hoping for something much nicer and on the water but I guess we have to just settle for what we get. Hopefully, we will get another icon, besides Ontario Place, on our waterfront. We need some major tourist attractions and great public areas. Canada Square might be nice.

I agree with all of this, but the idea that we have to 'settle for what we get' pretty much defines the problem in Toronto, as far as I can tell. As we scratch our heads over how to reanimate Ontario Place we go and allow a private developer to build a 'questionable' aquarium at the foot of our single most important landmark. Makes no sense to me but the deals get passed behind closed doors because the city has lost focus and vision, bowing down to the pressures of private interests and development.

 

[Automation Gallery]

we go and allow a private developer to build a 'questionable' aquarium at the foot of our single most important landmark. Makes no sense to me but the deals get passed behind closed doors because the city has lost focus and vision, bowing down to the pressures of private interests and development.

I disagree, there have very few tourist attractions built lately in Toronto to be excited about, most are getting old and out-dated. Ripley's Aquarium comes over to Toronto and proposes to invest a couple 100 million bucks on an unused patch of grass to build a world-class aquarium thats eventually going to employ hundreds of people, attract millions of tourists, and advertise Toronto globally..what would you say, No

 

[Torontovibe]

I disagree, there have very few tourist attractions built lately in Toronto to be excited about, most are getting old and out-dated. Ripley's Aquarium comes over to Toronto and proposes to invest a couple 100 million bucks on an unused patch of grass to build a world-class aquarium thats eventually going to employ hundreds of people, attract millions of tourists, and advertise Toronto globally..what would you say, No

A "world-class aquarium" by Ripley's? Maybe you should wait till it's finished, to judge if it will be world-class. I don't share your blind faith. Tewder, I agree with much of what you said, I was just pointing out that Toronto is not quite as bad as some were making it out to be. We do have bright spots to our waterfront too.

 

[unimaginative2]

I've never been as crazy about Chicago's waterfront as some people. It's beautiful in parts and the surrounding architecture definitely adds to the ambiance. It's pretty dead for much of the year, though, and it's limited if you're looking for anything other than a patch of grass and a view. I much prefer European and (some) Asian waterfronts that are bustling hubs of activity.

As for conventional tourist attractions, I agree that Toronto is quite limited. We've got a couple of good museums, but so do most Midwestern American cities. Queens Quay Terminal is pretty limited as a waterfront attraction and CN Tower is pretty much it in terms of big gimmicky spots. Obviously if you're a different kind of tourist, there are many great neighbourhoods to check out, at least in summer. The city seems a little dead in the winter. All of this doesn't necessarily matter that much, though. For the vast majority of people in the world, particularly Europe, Toronto is the city near Niagara Falls.

 

[Landscape design ftw]

If you noticed in the post you responded to, my response was a link. If you clicked onto it, you'd have found this
http://www.chbooks.com/catalogue/concrete_toronto

Though given your present response and the nature of your posts, I wouldn't be surprised if you're headed for a ban of some sort...

No I havent read that, it looks interesting and I'll have to take it out of the library some time. In your first response I didnt actually see this link, possibly didnt load on the page for some reason. Why would I be headed for a ban my responses are good natured.

 

[Landscape design ftw]

I think Tewder has it right on most of the things he said. What I agree with the most though is that we tend to just sit back and accept what we get here in toronto. This forum gives me some hope because obviously some people care about whats going on in this city. Ive been trying to pay close attention to how things are developing in this city aquarium and otherwise, most of all the waterfront, and I found this series of videos on youtube of a Toronto council meeting on the waterfront. from what I can see they have atleast gone out and hired a few people with good work history. Such as james corner field design co who won the 2004 interenational competition for highline park in new york.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pib...ay&list=WL8B79C515DC3E5A5E&index=2&playnext=1

 

[current]

From Adam Vaughan's June newsletter:

Construction Notice: Skywalk Closure Railway Lands/CityPlace
____________________

In July 2011, construction will begin on the Ripley’s Aquarium of Canada, which will be located at the base of the CN Tower.

Every effort has been made to minimize the impact of construction on the neighbourhood; however, for the period of July 2011 – July 2013, the construction crew must close the western exit of SkyWalk, the pedestrian connection between the CN Tower / Rogers Centre neighbourhood and Union Station, the TTC and GO Transit. Access between these two areas will still be possible and facilitated by a signed detour. See the map below for further details. (map available in PDF version)

The planned construction completion date is the summer of 2013. Once construction is complete, Ripley's Aquarium of Canada will be restoring the pedestrian connection via the SkyWalk.

 

[MDV3]

Having experienced the South Side of Chicago, by car and on foot, (Yes, I am quite the daredevil) I can guarantee you, there is no part of Toronto that even comes close to that kind of poverty, segregation and ugliness. I had 3 warnings of danger in about 5 minutes, from well meaning residents.

A lot of you guys tend to have Doug Ford syndrome, meaning you overlook what's good about our city and lust after what American's have. We have great potential on our waterfront.

I think Ontario Place is spectacular and has so much potential for greatness. I LOVE those floating pods and the park in general. It's so unique. Centre Island is another one-of-a-kind gem, right beside our downtown. How many large cities have something like that just minutes from downtown? What about the hugeness of The Leslie Street Spit and Rouge Park? Don't forget the Beauty of The Scarborough Bluffs. The buildings at the CNE are quite impressive too. Our waterfront is interesting to explore, with all those hidden spaces and Quays. The beaches is a nice place but it could be a magnificent beach with some work. Even our West Waterfront has some beautiful parks. Sure, there is lots of room for improvement but the potential is there. As for the aquarium, I was hoping for something much nicer and on the water but I guess we have to just settle for what we get. Hopefully, we will get another icon, besides Ontario Place, on our waterfront. We need some major tourist attractions and great public areas. Canada Square might be nice.

Of course, I don't expect greatness with Ford at the wheel but things can and will change, in time. All I see, is great potential.

waterfront toronto's park plans are really great. maybe it's because people want really big, green, central spaces... i dont know but i wish they all seemed more... connected... if you know what i mean...