Toronto Queens Quay & Water's Edge Revitalization | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto
- Thread starter AlvinofDiaspar
- Start date
georgevicbell
Active Member
I'm taking bets on how long until the first councillor says the words: Queen's Quay Disaster
Hairball
Active Member
Hah, but then again it really has been a disaster. Weren't the streetcars supposed to be back last year? Hopefully at least it looks decent when it's done.
Neil
Active Member
I'll take Queen's Quay Boondoggle to happen first.
ksun
Senior Member
Councillor Pam McConnell, whose Ward 28 includes Queens Quay, said she is not surprised by the overruns and is not questioning the need for them.
“We have now built Queens Quay for 50 more years and I think that that’s a good investment,” she said. “And if they were money out because they didn’t anticipate these additional things, I think that’s just the way it is.”
I am speechless about such reaction of the councillor - yeah, it is not my money, so that's just the way it is. "I think it is a good investment" - what the hell does that mean? Whether it is a good investment always depends on how much is invested. How about such accountability? How about questioning the initial planning? Would it be a good investment if the project costs $1 billion? This woman doesn't seem to care. As long as it is done eventually, she will be fine with it.
I didn't vote for her, but she seems to have won the election with flying colours. When we have councillors like this (who don't seem to care about numbers), no doubt almost every single project is over budget and delayed significantly.
“We have now built Queens Quay for 50 more years and I think that that’s a good investment,” she said. “And if they were money out because they didn’t anticipate these additional things, I think that’s just the way it is.”
I am speechless about such reaction of the councillor - yeah, it is not my money, so that's just the way it is. "I think it is a good investment" - what the hell does that mean? Whether it is a good investment always depends on how much is invested. How about such accountability? How about questioning the initial planning? Would it be a good investment if the project costs $1 billion? This woman doesn't seem to care. As long as it is done eventually, she will be fine with it.
I didn't vote for her, but she seems to have won the election with flying colours. When we have councillors like this (who don't seem to care about numbers), no doubt almost every single project is over budget and delayed significantly.
ttk77
Senior Member
No, I don't think they were that far behind schedule with the street cars. What's ridiculous though is how long they're taking to do the granite work on some areas of the street. The granite installation in front of 250/260/270 QQ West is now months longer than is should have been, and the work there seems to be abandoned for weeks on end.
ksun
Senior Member
This is exactly why projects take so long - not because of technical challenges, or better safety measures, as many willingly hoped and believed, but primarily due to the simple fact that no work is being done for much of the time.
Take the EA work for any major project for example. The fact it takes 5 to 8 years is ridiculous. No work requires that much time. It takes that only because the people who are supposed to work on it only work on it for probably 1.5 hours a day on average, and rest of the time is spent on pushing papers, having meaningless and repetitive meetings, and whatever they do to get days by.
Last year the streetcar tracks were replaced at the intersection of Queen and Victoria (just before reaching Yonge). The timeline was 5 weeks and it was finished the day before the deadline, nicely. Why? Because multiple workers were actually working on it all the time when they are supposed to do work, I mean before 9 am and often after 5 or 6 pm, possibly because it is a priority project and the 501 needs to run as soon as possible.
But if you look at other projects, they are seldom like that. More workers stand by than actually working on the field, and other times they are just nowhere to be seen, during the project, and by 5 or 4, everyone is gone. The effective hours is probably 3 per day, and no wonder nothing gets completed on time. Shouldn't all projects be carried out with the same kind of urgency like the Queen streetcar track replacement? What makes them feel more entitled to slackness on most projects and getting away with it?
The streetcars were back much later than originally stated and after multiple delays. But they are back now. I can attest to the fact that work was going on all the time, except during the bitter cold last winter. The winter before, when it was much milder, they worked pretty much every day. Work is also being done on weekends. It's a massive job, but it's going to be beautiful. As a bonus, every time I walk along that stretch, it's a new adventure, wondering what new maze awaits 
ksun
Senior Member
It is leniency like this makes them think being slow and significant behind schedule is totally acceptable, and is even normal.
"but they are back now" -- that's makes it OK?
"pretty much every day" - what are they doing on the missing days? and when you say every day, how many effective hours are spent in working (aside from chatting, smoking, drinking coffee, lunch, or just standing by)?
"it is a massive job" -- if you look at projects around the world 10 or 50 times the scale, you realize it is not "massive", and being massive doesn't justify slow process either.
Not lenient at all.
There was unforeseen work -- once they started excavating, things they hadn't planned on had to be done. If you've ever undertaken a major renovation to a house, for example, you'd know that this happens, so don't start with the "they should have known everything ahead" line.
I didn't say that the fact that the streetcars were back now made the delays acceptable -- I was actually referring to an earlier post that made it sound as though they weren't back yet so I was just clarifying that they are.
On the missing days, it was too cold to work. There are laws, you know, to protect people from getting frostbite on the job.
I'm not tolerant of people standing around chit-chatting when there is work to do be done. I have been impressed with not seeing that on this particular project.
And it is massive. It's a multi-year project that has totally redesigned a street. But I don't expect you to understand that. I'm sure you just think that's my rural sensibility talking.
Was it perfect? No. But it's much better than we've seen elsewhere.
And if you want perfect, perhaps you should don your white hat and go down there and make it happen.
There was unforeseen work -- once they started excavating, things they hadn't planned on had to be done. If you've ever undertaken a major renovation to a house, for example, you'd know that this happens, so don't start with the "they should have known everything ahead" line.
I didn't say that the fact that the streetcars were back now made the delays acceptable -- I was actually referring to an earlier post that made it sound as though they weren't back yet so I was just clarifying that they are.
On the missing days, it was too cold to work. There are laws, you know, to protect people from getting frostbite on the job.
I'm not tolerant of people standing around chit-chatting when there is work to do be done. I have been impressed with not seeing that on this particular project.
And it is massive. It's a multi-year project that has totally redesigned a street. But I don't expect you to understand that. I'm sure you just think that's my rural sensibility talking.
Was it perfect? No. But it's much better than we've seen elsewhere.
And if you want perfect, perhaps you should don your white hat and go down there and make it happen.
the lemur
Senior Member
Queen's Quay Quagmire, from someone mispronouncing it as 'kway'. Someone who habitually mangles things, like Mammoliti.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Quagmire exactly. Queens Quay is built on landfill, literally a quagmire (soft muddy ground).
salsa
Senior Member
What a response. But on the other end of the spectrum you also have Tory appointee Denzil Minnan Wrong, who's scrutiny consists of standing next to public toilets and pink umbrellas long after they were built, ranting about how much it costs. No doubt he will drop some more turds at the next waterfront board meeting to to score political points.
I think Tory had the most reasonable, middle ground response: "Obviously I am concerned with the cost overruns with respect to the Queens Quay project and, in particular, the lack of transparency and timeliness in reporting these costs. We need to invest in our waterfront, but we need to do so carefully and in a transparent manner that respects the tax dollars we are investing."
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GenerationW
Senior Member
You should go down there and yell at them.
georgevicbell
Active Member
Sounds like from the sounds of it that there were a few main issues:
1. Toronto Hydro not getting their act together to fund their part in time to start when they were supposed to
2. Unknown Unknowns - all the stuff you don't find out until you start digging
3. Artificial deadline of Pan-Am games (which arguably is necessary due to the location) and probably was part of the bid
Don't think TTC had much to do with the delay, if anything Waterfront Toronto/Pan-Am forced Toronto Hydro to get things done...
I understand the concept of not publicly announcing the $30 million overrun until the agreements were in place (as then they will just not agree to anything but whatever was budgeted). But they definitely should have come out and said there will be significant overruns and we've have a number but aren't releasing it until the agreements are in place...
I guess this is just the first of a list of many items where Ford failed to stop the gravy (just wait for Union and NPS to be complete!)