Toronto Queens Quay & Water's Edge Revitalization | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

[WislaHD]

? No you didn't. My first words were "Montreal less salt consumption? I'd be surprised ... What's the source for that?".

What's the source for that?

To close this argument out, here are the facts.

"Toronto, for example, uses 130,000 to 150,000 tonnes of salt annually while Montreal also uses around the 130,000 tonne mark. The City of Vancouver has already used more than 7,000 tonnes of salt this winter — seven times its usual winter amount."

Why do we still use road salt and what are the alternatives? | Globalnews.ca

Canadians turn to salt to prevent slipping or traffic collisions on icy surfaces, but there's a growing body of research that highlights the devastating impact road salt can have on our environment and infrastructure.

globalnews.ca

So it isn't as much of a difference as I had previously thought, but Toronto uses more salt than Montreal, despite Montreal being a smaller city and having significantly harsher winters.

At any rate, your other statements on the subject of road salt have raised the ire of some in this thread for good reason. My hope is that you have learned some new things about the impacts of road salt on the environment, economy, and infrastructure, as a result of this comment chain. I understand that there are practical reasons for salting the roads, but given the severity of the practice's impacts, it does become a question of trade-offs and underlines the urgency for an alternative solution (and a reduction of use in the interim).

 

[nfitz]

Toronto, for example, uses 130,000 to 150,000 tonnes of salt annually while Montreal also uses around the 130,000 tonne mark.

I am surprised. If those numbers are accurate, Montreal must have reduced salt consumption significantly. Montreal is a bit smaller, but not much. It's also a bit less dense these days, with the various amalgamations. I hear a lot of complaints from Montrealers at poor road and sidewalk maintenance, and I must confess I stay away from the city for the most part in the winter, so it's hard to see how things have changed from my youth.

At any rate, your other statements on the subject of road salt have raised the ire of some in this thread for good reason. My hope is that you have learned some new things about the impacts of road salt on the environment, economy, and infrastructure, as a result of this comment chain.

I literally wrote a thesis many years ago on the environmental impacts of road salt in groundwater. As I've originally said, we should minimize it's usage - but we shouldn't put lives at risk by doing so. I'm not sure why that should raise ire ... it's by far the most effective deicer - and application rates are a lot lower than they used to be with how they apply it these days.

And of course there's the cost issue. We go on about the environment, but voters have time, and time, and time again made it quite clear that lowering taxes is a much more important issue than environmental protection. I'm all in favour of increasing taxes to protect the environment ... but then people don't seem to agree with me on that either.

 

[nfitz]

Here's some more recent salt numbers. Montreal takes almost 200,000 tonnes of salt through the port there (presumably it all comes by boat?) - https://www.tvanouvelles.ca/2018/12/11/des-montagnes-de-sel-dans-le-port-de-montreal - with another 300,000 tonnes for other the Quebec Ministry of Transport and nearby municipalities.

Toronto's 5 and 10-year averages are both about 130,000 tonnes - https://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledg...atistics-salt-brine-snow-clearing-budget.html

That would put Montreal about double per capita - which is more in line with what I'd have expected, given the longer harsher winters.

 

[DSC]

Here's some more recent salt numbers. Montreal takes almost 200,000 tonnes of salt through the port there (presumably it all comes by boat?) - https://www.tvanouvelles.ca/2018/12/11/des-montagnes-de-sel-dans-le-port-de-montreal - with another 300,000 tonnes for other the Quebec Ministry of Transport and nearby municipalities.

Toronto's 5 and 10-year averages are both about 130,000 tonnes - https://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledg...atistics-salt-brine-snow-clearing-budget.html

That would put Montreal about double per capita - which is more in line with what I'd have expected, given the longer harsher winters.

I am not sure that a discussion on salt use is a very productive sideline on this thread but I must say i wonder why you think that all the salt for Montreal arrives by boat or even that all the salt coming by boat to Montreal remains in Montreal. That is not to say that using salt has a major deleterious effect on our environment and that its use should be reduced as much as possible.

 

[nfitz]

I am not sure that a discussion on salt use is a very productive sideline on this thread

I simply entered this thread questioning the claim that Toronto used more salt than Montreal. Nothing more really needs to be said on the issue now that we've established that Toronto doesn't use more salt.

... i wonder why you think that all the salt for Montreal arrives by boat or even that all the salt coming by boat to Montreal remains in Montreal.

The article said that 500,000 tonnes came in by the port, and that 200,000 tonnnes of that was for Montreal. Not sure what you are questioning here really.

Also I left a question mark on whether it all comes by boat - I suppose it could be greater than 200,000 tonnes ... though given the huge salt mine that provides much of salt is on Lake Huron, that they'd be using lakers is my best guess.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Then there is another alternative, heated sidewalks. Only needs to be turned on when snowing or freezing rain, up to +3°C to +4°C.

Montreal moves forward on heated sidewalks

See link.

A bout of freezing rain that recently swept across Eastern Canada had some Montrealers reaching for skates and sent many a pedestrian crashing to the ground.
But what if icy, snow-covered sidewalks could be a thing of the past?

Since announcing the project in 2015, Montreal has been slowly moving ahead with a plan to install heated sidewalks on one of its key downtown arteries.

According to the plan, a snaking network of garden-hose-sized tubes will circulate a mixture of water and glycol, warmed by an electric heater, under a 670-metre stretch of Ste-Catherine Street.
At 3 C, the pavement will be kept warm enough to prevent snow from accumulating, thus saving the need for much of the plowing and salting now used to keep sidewalks clear.

“(Heated sidewalks) will accentuate the commercial attraction of the city in the winter by allowing pedestrians and shoppers to walk on sidewalks that are clear most of the time,” said city spokeswoman Geneviève Dubé.

“Accessibility will be improved by this fact, and damage to city property and trees will be reduced because there will be fewer snow-clearing operations.”

Construction is set to begin in 2018, while a second phase two years later would expand the heated surface to 2.2 kilometres.

While it may seem like a pipe dream, warmed walkways are not uncommon in the rest of the world.

The volcanic city of Reykjavik heats its streets through geothermal energy, while cities such as Sapporo and Oslo use electric heat.

But despite their northern climates, big Canadian cities are behind the curve when it comes to keeping citizens’ feet warm.

Saskatoon has included heated sidewalks in its medium-term plans to redevelop its city centre, but officials are not pursuing it actively at present, according to planning director Lesley Anderson. Other projects in Canada are small scale, limited to hospitals, private driveways and short commercial stretches.

Cost is certainly a factor. While Montreal hasn’t finalized the budget for the project, preliminary estimates for phase one are around $26 million, Dubé said.

But while the price seems astronomical, heated sidewalks could pay off in the long run, according to Francois Racine, an urban studies professor at Université du Québec a Montréal.

He said snow-removal operations and roadway salt are expensive and damage both the environment and the pavement.

A warming climate means precipitation is more likely to fall as freezing rain, which is harder for city crews to clear quickly by traditional means.

Then there’s the benefit of getting people outside in winter, and of money saved in emergency-room visits from pedestrians who fall...

 

[Northern Light]

I have posted a link, in the Toronto Tree Thread, to an online webinar looking at street mortality and in particular, the correlation to road salt.

The webinar runs 1hr 18m. It has its moderately technical moments, but should be accessible to any interested viewer.

In the course of the webinar, two Toronto-specific research studies are discussed in detail, looking at the problems on Bloor Street and on Queen's Quay.

I'll leave it at that and recommend interested folks to go over to the Toronto Tree thread, follow the link and take the conversation from there in that thread.

 

[DSC]

Then there is another alternative, heated sidewalks. Only needs to be turned on when snowing or freezing rain, up to +3°C to +4°C.

Montreal moves forward on heated sidewalks

See link.

You link to a 2017 article saying this was discussed in 2015. It is now 2019, has anything actually been constructed???

 

[W. K. Lis]

Maybe Enwave should look into heating the sidewalks and bicycle paths?

Expansion of Enwave’s Toronto district heating/cooling network
New thermal energy storage tanks at 'The Well' development in Toronto's downtown west will provide year-round cooling and heating services.

From link.

Allied Properties REIT, Enwave Energy Corp. and RioCan REIT have announced an extension to Enwave’s existing deep lake water cooling and hot water distribution network in Toronto by building a new energy storage facility housed at The Well, a mixed-use residential, commercial and retail development by RioCan and Allied located in Toronto’s downtown west in close proximity to the CN Tower and across from the proposed rail deck park.

The move expands Enwave‘s existing system, providing both The Well and surrounding communities with access to its cooling and heating solutions. The collaboration is being touted as the first one of its kind in Canada.

“This initiative is special in that three, forward-looking companies are collaborating and enabling pioneering ideas to be implemented at a scale greater than each company could achieve alone,” said Carlyle Coutinho, president/COO, Enwave Canada. “The development is a reflection of our joint commitment to build resilient, urban communities incorporating intelligent energy solutions and utilizing future-focused technologies.”

The thermal energy storage facility consists of two 6-million-litre tanks underneath The Well.

The tanks will store temperature-controlled water fed by Enwave’s existing deep lake water cooling system originating in Lake Ontario and a newly developed high-efficiency hot water network.

It will expand the existing system’s capacity with the ability to serve over 20 million sq. ft. of commercial, retail and residential space.

As an anchor site, the installation will serve The Well community, and buildings in neighbouring areas, providing a low-carbon, cooling and heating option for the downtown west community.

“This agreement enables the extension of Enwave’s system to The Well and allows our tenants as well as commercial, retail and residential sites in the downtown west and surrounding areas to conserve energy and reduce Toronto’s carbon emissions,” said Ed Sonshine, RioCan CEO. “This is a growing focus for many Canadians and we are excited that The Well will support these objectives.”

The Well features 1.1 million sq. ft. of office space, 500,000 sq. ft. of retail and food service space, and 1,800 residential units. Construction on The Well commenced in 2017.

 

[robmausser]

Maybe Enwave should look into heating the sidewalks and bicycle paths?

Expansion of Enwave’s Toronto district heating/cooling network
New thermal energy storage tanks at 'The Well' development in Toronto's downtown west will provide year-round cooling and heating services.

From link.

I could only see them doing it if the city paid or it was like a by-product of their system in some way.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I could only see them doing it if the city paid or it was like a by-product of their system in some way.

Enwave used to be a city owned department, until Mayor Rob Ford sold it for the one-time bag of silver.

 

[rbt]

Enwave used to be a city owned department, until Mayor Rob Ford sold it for the one-time bag of silver.

Toronto owned 43% of the company, the rest was owned by OMERS (indirectly). Toronto didn't have a big enough stake to give orders.

It was sold to Brookfield, who I presume still owns it. If anyone has a map of Brookfield's land assembly efforts in Toronto we might get an idea of any future EnWave expansion.

 

[DSC]

Toronto owned 43% of the company, the rest was owned by OMERS (indirectly). Toronto didn't have a big enough stake to give orders.

It was sold to Brookfield, who I presume still owns it. If anyone has a map of Brookfield's land assembly efforts in Toronto we might get an idea of any future EnWave expansion.

Brookfield do still own it (plus other similar systems in other cities) I was searching, unsuccessfully, for the current Enwave map of Toronto but did find https://www.toronto2030platform.ca/about Interesting!

As far as I know, the Enbridge network currently goes just east of Yonge (to Scott Street/Victoria Street)and the Sony Centre and St Lawrence Centre may be the furthest east buildings attached to either their heating or cooling networks. At one time there was talk of extending the network to the St Lawrence Market complex but this never occurred (maybe because City sold its interest?)

More info on their expansion to Well is at: https://www.canadianconsultingengin...-district-heating-cooling-network/1003406893/

 

[MetroMan]

I did another walk through Queens Quay and had a better look. As far as I can tell without seeing leaves, every tree looks alive. There’s a clear variety of species and maturity. Some newly planted trees are over 10ft tall with thick trunks and others look to be a year or two older than the ones that were planted in 2015 but didn’t make it. So they’re not too far behind.

There are also a handful of thriving original trees that are 20 feet tall with a wide canopy and thick trunks. I imagine that if they had all thrived like that, this Spring we’d have something close to what the rendering envisioned. If most of them survive, I think we’ll get there in another couple of years.

There are sections where some trees will be touching the tree on the opposite side by the Summer.

The success of the trees is critical to delivering on the promise of Queens Quay. They’re a crucial part of creating the visual separation from the car realm and that of pedestrians and cyclists and producing that long pedestrian boulevard West/DTAH dreamed up.

This was always a 10+ year project. The cobblestone and wave decks were just the part where we could control their construction. The other part, but just as important, the tree canopy, is just something we’re going to have to be patient with.

 

[pstogios]

Isn’t there a Tree thread for this topic?

Oh right, there is

The Toronto Tree Thread

Since I've seen a few requests for a thread just on Toronto's Trees, I'm making this one. I expect questions will still arise in various specific project threads, but if people want to have an intensive tree-related discussion, this will be a good spot. I'll post this article from 2016 to get...

urbantoronto.ca