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Toronto Police Service Reformation

Projection said:
I'd challenge the presumption police shootings are a problem at all.

US in 2019 had 9 fatal shootings of blacks, 19 whites, 40 where the person was unarmed. Odds were 1 in 10 million

Tucker Carlson recently described each case, in most the victim was extremely violent. There were over 300 million police interactions.

Toronto: About 2 fatal shootings by police per year, black & white - usually armed.

If someone asked me to guess how many people police would need to shoot each year when 5 million humans are jammed together in a confined area. I'd have guessed about 500. Heck, I see about 4 people every day I'd like to shoot.

We do not have a police problem. Neither does the US. Its all a fake fact when you look at data.
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May I suggest to you that few if any members here think Tucker Carlson is a credible source of information about anything at all.

Further, that you would imagine 500 deaths caused by police might be ok is utterly flabbergasting.

That would mean police caused 500% more deaths than did 'murderers' in a high-murder year, in Toronto.

That would be insane and would, without reservation make the police a criminal enterprise unworthy of anything but jail time for every member.

Your understanding of morality is highly questionable.

I suspect your stay here may be short lived.
 
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I made a humorous comment suggesting in a city of 5 million competing mammals the level of violence Leviathan requires is maintain order is surprisingly low. You fail to address comments about statistical rarity of police shootings. Instead you dismiss Carlson because he's a conservative voice. I would not dismiss out of hand any articulate voice - Left or Right. I suggest your own perspective might improve if you are open to both sides of an argument.

I strongly believe the over-whelming majority of Torontonians believe our police are not violent and 2 fatal shooting per a year is not excessive, but remarkably rare. When police are summoned its usually because a situation is already beyond the control of those at the scene.

Censorious threats such as your "I suspect your stay here may be short-lived" might make this forum ideologically pure, but the private beliefs of societies tend to be conservative. This opens the door to Antifa types bc they think they have support, leading to a cycle of violence. You sound highly educated. So you ought to be open to the Tucker Carlson's just as much to the CBC.

Toronto police are not violent. This needs to be said. You are perfectly free to ban me if you have the authority to do so.
 
Projection said:
I made a humorous comment suggesting in a city of 5 million competing mammals the level of violence Leviathan requires is maintain order is surprisingly low. You fail to address comments about statistical rarity of police shootings. Instead you dismiss Carlson because he's a conservative voice. I would not dismiss out of hand any articulate voice - Left or Right. I suggest your own perspective might improve if you are open to both sides of an argument.

I strongly believe the over-whelming majority of Torontonians believe our police are not violent and 2 fatal shooting per a year is not excessive, but remarkably rare. When police are summoned its usually because a situation is already beyond the control of those at the scene.

Censorious threats such as your "I suspect your stay here may be short-lived" might make this forum ideologically pure, but the private beliefs of societies tend to be conservative. This opens the door to Antifa types bc they think they have support, leading to a cycle of violence. You sound highly educated. So you ought to be open to the Tucker Carlson's just as much to the CBC.

Toronto police are not violent. This needs to be said. You are perfectly free to ban me if you have the authority to do so.
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I offer a quote for your consideration:

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt. — ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

****

I regularly read Andrew Coyne, David Frum, and a plethora of other conservative voices.

I am a deficit hawk.

I am non-partisan

I do not fit neatly into onto an ideological spectrum and studies show few people do.

But Carlson is less a conservative thinker than an idiot who regularly lies, contradicts himself, makes a fool of himself and promulgates intemperate views.

I have no desire to censor anyone who actually does research and brings forth thoughtful opinions for discussion.

Your initial post does not meet that standard.
 
picard102 said:
They're not wrong. Police shootings here are fairly rare, and justified is most cases.
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I think you would find your view is not accepted as mainstream on this.

Many countries manage police fatality rates that are far lower.

Why them and not us?

We have too many instances involving mentally ill and un-armed folks being killed.

Are there justified shootings? Of course.

We needn't debate the exact percentage; but if we had New Zealand's rate; we'd have 75% less than we do.

That seems entirely reasonable.
 
People absolutely do fit into an ideological spectrum, read Jonathan Haidt's "The Righteous Mind" to understand this better.

For anyone tuning into this thread, I presented simple clear research (page 19) showing fatal police shooting in Canada and the US are remarkably low. In the US in 2019, just 41 unarmed (mostly white) people were killed by police. In other words 1 in 10 million. Tucker Carlson discussed in detail each of the 9 shooting in of Blacks. Northern Light, dismissed Carlson out of hand.

Violence perpetrated by Toronto police is so low, even the truly tragic (in fact heart-breaking) suicide of Regis was laid at the feet of police to support a false narrative

There is some racism in Canada, it is not high. Responsibility lies everywhere, in all communities. Using the police as the scapegoat is cowardly and hypocritical. I'm surprised NL is so reluctant to call it out.
 
Projection said:
I strongly believe the over-whelming majority of Torontonians believe our police are not violent and 2 fatal shooting per a year is not excessive, but remarkably rare.
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As a white, middle class guy my immediate reaction in seeing two Police SUVs parked behind me with officers chatting away during my morning bench with the dog in Riverdale Park was good, keeping the peace and the dealers away. I've always had good relations with the police, we wave at them on horseback, I chat with them when we both pull up to a stop on motorcycles, etc. I wish our POC, mentally fragile and other folks could have an equally positive experience.
 
Northern Light said:
I think you would find your view is not accepted as mainstream on this.

Many countries manage police fatality rates that are far lower.

Why them and not us?

We have too many instances involving mentally ill and un-armed folks being killed.

Are there justified shootings? Of course.

We needn't debate the exact percentage; but if we had New Zealand's rate; we'd have 75% less than we do.

That seems entirely reasonable.
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You haven't engaged the facts, simply making virtue-signaling claims.

We do not have "too many mentally ill and unarmed folks being killed". Can you share examples of unarmed mentally ill persons being killed in Canada? I would expect you to present many examples. We have hundreds of thousands of police interactions with mentally ill people. Nearly 100% are handled with compassion, sensitivity, without incident. You imply otherwise, why?
 
Projection said:
We do not have "too many mentally ill and unarmed folks being killed". Can you share examples of unarmed mentally ill persons being killed in Canada? I would expect you to present many examples. We have hundreds of thousands of police interactions with mentally ill people. Nearly 100% are handled with compassion, sensitivity, without incident. You imply otherwise, why?
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I would suggest that it almost never occurs that police kill a mentally ill person who is demonstratively unarmed. But how often do we see police kill mentally ill people who are at best nominally armed with the likes of a small hammer (Andrew Loku), a paring knife (Lester Donaldson), a stapler (Robert Dziekanski), scissors (Michael Eligon), or a bike lock (Paul Boyd)? How do police departments that do not have armed line officers deal with mentally ill people who may be armed with something like a shovel or screwdriver?

If I was a mental health outreach worker and I knocked on your door and you started shouting mindlessly and brandishing a whisk or a friggin stapler, I'd step back and deescalate the issue, not demand that you put down the stapler and then step forward.
 
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