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Toronto Police Service Reformation

W. K. Lis

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Make sure you define "defund" before commenting on it.

What Does Defunding The Police Mean?

From link.

What Would It Mean To Defund The Police?

Defunding is an alternative to police reform that points to the failures of relying on policies alone to prevent acts of terrorism by officers. It proposes that a portion of the money spent on police should be reallocated to other social and economic services, like food assistance and mental health programs. ...
 

Admiral Beez

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Someone with a knife is a serious threat, as serious as if they had a gun.
If they are not responding to commands, and advance, they have no choice but to shoot.
Indeed, if you look at these cases where you’ve got someone advancing with a knife on a police officer, all I can say is I’m glad she/he had a gun.



I have no time for tasers or shoot him in the foot nonsense. Deadly force must be met with deadly force.
 

Jasmine18

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I would say that just because a person has a hammer or knife does not mean officers can shoot them dead.

If someone charges the cop with the left and then what do you expect the police to do...

Stick thier you know what out ?
 

MetroMan

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While I won’t put Toronto Police at the level of some of the cops we’ve seen who are responding to a protest against Police brutality with... police brutality, there is certainly a widespread element of abuse of power in our police service.

I’m white so I’m certain that I’ve missed the brunt of it but during the Raptors parade, the bubble of innocence was burst for me. People were generally well behaved during the parade and police were generally friendly and in a celebratory mood... except for one cop that I had an interaction with. As the parade wound down, I tried to leave and find a way through the crowd. As I turned my back to this cop to leave, he pulled out his baton and pushed it sharp end into my kidneys. I’ve never felt so much pain in my life. He knew where to press. I turned to him in a “what the hell was that for” expression, only to have him cross check me with his baton into my chest with the most shit faced, gum chewing “what are you gonna do about it” face you can imagine. When I was safely away, I snapped a photo and sent it to a friend in the service. His response: “oh yeah, that guy is an asshole. But cops don’t rat on cops.”

The problem with the police isn’t that they’re all assholes who abuse their power, it’s this culture of “brotherhood” that prevents the bad elements from ever being expelled. That needs to end if we’re going to reform the police. I have no illusions that we’ll get there.
 

MetroMan

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Before all of this, I‘d already been pushing for reform of the police, and now is the time to do it. We don’t need cops who are highly trained to deal with violence and who absolutely deserve their high pay for endangering themselves, sitting at construction sites or writing traffic tickets earning $100k/year. We don’t need them interacting with people suffering from homelessness. We don’t need them responding to people in crisis.

Police absolutely need to exist to deal with gangs, homicides, theft and other potentially violent crime. But Parking Enforcement can be expanded into Traffic & Parking Enforcement who dont carry weapons and who are motivated to dealing with actual traffic enforcement and don’t think it’s beneath them. Traffic wardens can manage construction sites just fine. EMS can be expanded and trained to deal with people in mental health crisis. Organizations that deal with homelessness can have their funding increased to better assist with that.

Absolutely, defund the police and redirect that money to appropriate services that have no reason to carry guns.
 

Northern Light

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While I won’t put Toronto Police at the level of some of the cops we’ve seen who are responding to a protest against Police brutality with... police brutality, there is certainly a widespread element of abuse of power in our police service.

I’m white so I’m certain that I’ve missed the brunt of it but during the Raptors parade, the bubble of innocence was burst for me. People were generally well behaved during the parade and police were generally friendly and in a celebratory mood... except for one cop that I had an interaction with. As the parade wound down, I tried to leave and find a way through the crowd. As I turned my back to this cop to leave, he pulled out his baton and pushed it sharp end into my kidneys. I’ve never felt so much pain in my life. He knew where to press. I turned to him in a “what the hell was that for” expression, only to have him cross check me with his baton into my chest with the most shit faced, gum chewing “what are you gonna do about it” face you can imagine. When I was safely away, I snapped a photo and sent it to a friend in the service. His response: “oh yeah, that guy is an asshole. But cops don’t rat on cops.”

The problem with the police isn’t that they’re all assholes who abuse their power, it’s this culture of “brotherhood” that prevents the bad elements from ever being expelled. That needs to end if we’re going to reform the police. I have no illusions that we’ll get there.
I hope for you and anyone else, there are no more next times; but should that ever happen, post the photo online; and hand it off to the media; someone will at least give you his ID, and there might be more video of that person to be had; and complaints from others as well.

We really need to do what we can to excise the cancer in police forces, lest it metastasize further
 

AlvinofDiaspar

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While I won’t put Toronto Police at the level of some of the cops we’ve seen who are responding to a protest against Police brutality with... police brutality, there is certainly a widespread element of abuse of power in our police service.

I’m white so I’m certain that I’ve missed the brunt of it but during the Raptors parade, the bubble of innocence was burst for me. People were generally well behaved during the parade and police were generally friendly and in a celebratory mood... except for one cop that I had an interaction with. As the parade wound down, I tried to leave and find a way through the crowd. As I turned my back to this cop to leave, he pulled out his baton and pushed it sharp end into my kidneys. I’ve never felt so much pain in my life. He knew where to press. I turned to him in a “what the hell was that for” expression, only to have him cross check me with his baton into my chest with the most shit faced, gum chewing “what are you gonna do about it” face you can imagine. When I was safely away, I snapped a photo and sent it to a friend in the service. His response: “oh yeah, that guy is an asshole. But cops don’t rat on cops.”

The problem with the police isn’t that they’re all assholes who abuse their power, it’s this culture of “brotherhood” that prevents the bad elements from ever being expelled. That needs to end if we’re going to reform the police. I have no illusions that we’ll get there.
Yep, the blue wall and all that. There are plenty of examples of reform-minded politicians getting stone-walled or worse. Recall this?



Or this?



AoD
 
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MetroMan

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I hope for you and anyone else, there are no more next times; but should that ever happen, post the photo online; and hand it off to the media; someone will at least give you his ID, and there might be more video of that person to be had; and complaints from others as well.

We really need to do what we can to excise the cancer in police forces, lest it metastasize further
This piece of sh*t

DSC05017.jpeg
 

Voltz

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Absolutely untrue.

I've known police personally who never did this; and many forces around the world combat these situations without drawing a gun, let alone shooting.

You're sponsoring reactionary overkill.

Police have self-defense training; take-down training, body armour, pepper spray and tasers at their disposal.

Also I've argued strongly officers should not respond to calls solo, which means they would out number any single problem person at least 2 to 1.

Yes, a gun may be needed in some situations, and sadly, rarely, may need to be used.

But this 'no choice' business is utterly unreasonable.
Something I think you should try, have someone, even a smaller person, hold a sharpie with the cap off
and try to take them down while they resist, and let me know if you get any ink on you.
 

Northern Light

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Something I think you should try, have someone, even a smaller person, hold a sharpie with the cap off
and try to take them down while they resist, and let me know if you get any ink on you.
If I'm wearing body armour at the time; and have someone to back me up, and a taser, and a baton, and pepper spray..........sure.
 

Voltz

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If I'm wearing body armour at the time; and have someone to back me up, and a taser, and a baton, and pepper spray..........sure.
Body armor is for bullets, not knives, and the rest of you is still exposed, not sure why you'd want to get into a baton fight with a knife, or spray someone (and yourself- not fun btw), your backup might be having to try and stop you from bleeding out,
 

lenaitch

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I think the answer to too many guns in society is not guns carried by police (routinely).

Its fewer guns in society.

Easier said than done, but no time like the present to start.

I'm all for officer safety, including returning to a minimum of 2 officers together on patrol at all times.

****

I have to say though, the ridiculous amount of gear on a typical uniform today, above and beyond the gun is extraordinary.

We really need to streamlne.

Pick what's important to Always have on your person, vs what's important to have 'access' to.

Why the hell are there still physical notepads when you can key in text on a phone or do voice-to-text?

Why are there flashlights, when a phone can light up like one?

Just saying. Total digression.
Digression for sure, but I've long argued the amount of gear that is carried. Available - for sure, but you don't need to be equipped like you are on dismounted patrol (infantry term). That's why they wear load bearing vests; they simply ran out of space on the belt and the amount of weight was causing back problems.

There is a lot to recommend the old tech of pen and paper. Never loses charge, no long term data durability problems, really inexpensive, and the simple act of writing slows down down and focuses the thought process. Police notes are first-account evidence and accuracy and completeness are important - two attributes that thumb typing and auto correct don't excel at as we all know. My former service has implemented voice-to-text for incident reports but it is not without problems when used at the institutional level.

Flash light vs cel phone - meh. A flashlight is a focused beam available at the push of a button, as opposed to a flood beam where you have to open the screen, select the function, etc.

Anyway, further digression.
Not directly on point to Toronto Police, but rather than create a new thread.........an article discussing yet another police shooting, this time in Canada, in New Brunswick, involving a young First Nations woman, for whom the police were called, to perform a wellness check.


Aside from making a clear case for mental health staff performing such a check.

It again raises the issue of the way in which officers are trained and armed.

The woman in question, apparently had a knife on her person.

But was also a woman, slight in stature, who should have been fairly easy to restrain or subdue if necessary, and who was in any event, in her own home, and no immediate threat to anyone. (also, no second-officer again??)

How then did the officer reason shooting was a reasonable choice?

Do I think that would have happened if the call had been from the Bridal Path in Toronto? Probably not

Do I think the officer considered that she was First Nations.............I hope not, but one must wonder.
I don't know how realistic things like 24/7 mental health workers and two member patrols are in an isolated town of 16,500 are. Two cars responding perhaps, but then you automatically double the call load if you send two to every call. As always, investigative details will evolve. Tasers and spray, perhaps, but they have limited range and don't always work on everybody, particularly those on drugs or suffering mental illness, and you often don't have time for Plan B if they don't work. Anybody that tries to go hands-on with somebody wielding an edged weapon is, in my opinion, a fool.
 

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