Toronto Police Service Reformation

[Northern Light]

In the case of Korchinski-Paquet, she clearly jumped off the balcony. Unless police pushed her or told her to jump I don't see how they have a part in this beyond being able to add to witness accounts. How many times do police successfully talk someone off a ledge or bridge railing? I imagine most times they are successful, but sometimes that person jumps.

I'm not sure that's clear; and being pushed isn't the only other option.

To my understanding, the police departing the unit, initially told the family that she had climbed on to the neighbour's balcony and entered the neighbour's unit.

It was after that that they came out and said she was on the ground.

It is possible she attempted to get the neighbour's balcony and was unsuccessful, either in the way that any of us might, or because she was prone to seizures.

Really, we don't know.

That's the point of body cams, so we have evidence of what did occur.

That evidence would also include whether police behaved in an intimidating way or otherwise prompted a panic response.

It may be they did none of these things and have no fault whatsoever.

But again, that's the virtue of having evidence of what was said/done.

 

[lenaitch]

There is medium between universal disarmament and universal armament.

Some police, have guns, not all police.

Access to a gun if needed; but not worn on the body automatically.

***

I had a family friend who worked for Toronto police who was an older man when I was young.

He retired in the '80s.

He was a cop 40+ years, never once drew his sidearm.

Was immensely proud of that.

He was no enthused with universal armament.

He said he could happily have done without it.

He was in uniform during a much higher crime period than today.

The vast majority of police in Ontario, and possibly Canada, never use their weapon in their entire careers, and quite possibly many of them never draw it from the holster. However, I'm not sure many would give theirs up. Your friend had quite old service. I couldn't find a definitive date when TPS became armed, but I found an old photo dated 1929 where the officer was. Whether or not the crime rate was higher or lower in previous periods is matter for statistics, but it is probably within the realm of public knowledge that the level of criminal gun play is higher now than in, say, the 1950s.

I realize this forum is Toronto-centric, but I have helped bury too many colleagues and a couple of close friends who were killed in what would seemed to have been rather innocuous incidents. In the 1980s I went to way too many police funerals. The 'routine traffic stop' or 'unknown trouble' call can be some of the most dangerous. Waiting for the cavalry to show up just doesn't cut it. Equating Canada to the UK (the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and a couple others, are fully armed) fails to take into account the cultural differences, including the presence of firearms in Canada and the influence of our neighbours to the south. Even at that, there is ongoing discussion whether or not the UK should arm up.

UK police chiefs discuss officers routinely carrying guns

Arming PCs remains option in light of terror threats, with shortage of specialist police

www.theguardian.com

 

[lenaitch]

That's the point of body cams, so we have evidence of what did occur.

That evidence would also include whether police behaved in an intimidating way or otherwise prompted a panic response.

It may be they did none of these things and have no fault whatsoever.

But again, that's the virtue of having evidence of what was said/done.

Body cameras may come, but they are not without issues, including but not limited to:

- cost, both to purchase and maintain but also data management and retrieval
- durability and battery efficiency, particularly in terms of temperature, as well as re-positioning when the wearer moves from, say, shirt to sweater to parka to raincoat.
- policy, including when to activate them
- privacy, including US law about data ownership for cloud storage if the server is in the US.

I think much good can come from them, but they won't be the salvation some think.

 

[Northern Light]

The vast majority of police in Ontario, and possibly Canada, never use their weapon in their entire careers, and quite possibly many of them never draw it from the holster. However, I'm not sure many would give theirs up. Your friend had quite old service. I couldn't find a definitive date when TPS became armed, but I found an old photo dated 1929 where the officer was. Whether or not the crime rate was higher or lower in previous periods is matter for statistics, but it is probably within the realm of public knowledge that the level of criminal gun play is higher now than in, say, the 1950s.

I realize this forum is Toronto-centric, but I have helped bury too many colleagues and a couple of close friends who were killed in what would seemed to have been rather innocuous incidents. In the 1980s I went to way too many police funerals. The 'routine traffic stop' or 'unknown trouble' call can be some of the most dangerous. Waiting for the cavalry to show up just doesn't cut it. Equating Canada to the UK (the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and a couple others, are fully armed) fails to take into account the cultural differences, including the presence of firearms in Canada and the influence of our neighbours to the south. Even at that, there is ongoing discussion whether or not the UK should arm up.

UK police chiefs discuss officers routinely carrying guns

Arming PCs remains option in light of terror threats, with shortage of specialist police

www.theguardian.com

I think the answer to too many guns in society is not guns carried by police (routinely).

Its fewer guns in society.

Easier said than done, but no time like the present to start.

I'm all for officer safety, including returning to a minimum of 2 officers together on patrol at all times.

****

I have to say though, the ridiculous amount of gear on a typical uniform today, above and beyond the gun is extraordinary.

We really need to streamlne.

Pick what's important to Always have on your person, vs what's important to have 'access' to.

Why the hell are there still physical notepads when you can key in text on a phone or do voice-to-text?

Why are there flashlights, when a phone can light up like one?

Just saying. Total digression.

 

[Northern Light]

Not directly on point to Toronto Police, but rather than create a new thread.........an article discussing yet another police shooting, this time in Canada, in New Brunswick, involving a young First Nations woman, for whom the police were called, to perform a wellness check.

N.B. police shooting of Indigenous woman sparks outrage across Canada

Federal minister demands ‘full accounting’ while Assembly of First Nations national chief calls for independent investigation

www.theglobeandmail.com

Aside from making a clear case for mental health staff performing such a check.

It again raises the issue of the way in which officers are trained and armed.

The woman in question, apparently had a knife on her person.

But was also a woman, slight in stature, who should have been fairly easy to restrain or subdue if necessary, and who was in any event, in her own home, and no immediate threat to anyone. (also, no second-officer again??)

How then did the officer reason shooting was a reasonable choice?

Do I think that would have happened if the call had been from the Bridal Path in Toronto? Probably not

Do I think the officer considered that she was First Nations.............I hope not, but one must wonder.

 

[Jasmine18]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1269092301755895809

There is overwhelming public support to reform the police but clearly any talk about defunding the police or disbanding the police is automatically rejected by vast majority of people

 

[Admiral Beez]

There is overwhelming public support to reform the police but clearly any talk about defending the police or disbanding the police is automatically rejected by vast majority of people

Jasmine, this makes no sense. Why is talk about defending the police rejected?

 

[Northern Light]

Jasmine, this makes no sense. Why is talk about defending the police rejected?

She meant de-funding.

 

[Jasmine18]

yeah it shows twitter is mostly a extreme left circle

 

[jje1000]

Yes, but the narrative around this has already been built up as being the fault of the police.
Rather than look stupid, protestors will twist themselves into a knot to keep the blame on the police.

Post-truth society; first narrative that has legs in the media is the one that's considered true. No one knew what happened, not even the family (who was in the hallway), but the popularized narrative for around two weeks was that the mother saw that the daughter was pushed (untrue).

Anyways, from Matlow:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1268943177400098817

Defunding is a term that can be easily confused with eliminating, since it conveys no limit (How much are you going to defund?)- as such, Matlow needs to clarify whether he wants to just reduce police funding, or to eliminate it completely as the latter narrative is trending at the moment.

You know that the moment the police is eliminated, the rich will instantly turn to unaccountable private security- after all, it's what happens in countries with corrupt/inefficient police systems, like Brazil or South Africa.

 

[Jasmine18]

As i said the problem is that is it fair to appease some of the public that feel they are less safe that cops have guns and ignore the rest of the public who feel more safe that the cops have guns?

I find a lot of debates get very onesided for no reason.

Its not a black and white issue, its very grey.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I’d like a dedicated psychiatrist/social worker attachment deployed alongside the police specifically for mental health calls IMO.

They’d be the ones to negotiate with the individual in crisis, with police providing support if things go south.

Add’t: The recent calls for the elimination of the police are lunacy. Very few surveys even in minority neighborhoods show support for the elimination of the police, but rather its improvement and reform.

Didn‘t we used to have men in white coats in a padded van intervene when someone was acting insane? Perhaps there’s a more nuanced and modern version of this Victorian era state involvement as opposed to sending the police.

 

[picard102]

How then did the officer reason shooting was a reasonable choice?

Someone with a knife is a serious threat, as serious as if they had a gun.
If they are not responding to commands, and advance, they have no choice but to shoot.

 

[Northern Light]

Someone with a knife is a serious threat, as serious as if they had a gun.
If they are not responding to commands, and advance, they have no choice but to shoot.

Absolutely untrue.

I've known police personally who never did this; and many forces around the world combat these situations without drawing a gun, let alone shooting.

You're sponsoring reactionary overkill.

Police have self-defense training; take-down training, body armour, pepper spray and tasers at their disposal.

Also I've argued strongly officers should not respond to calls solo, which means they would out number any single problem person at least 2 to 1.

Yes, a gun may be needed in some situations, and sadly, rarely, may need to be used.

But this 'no choice' business is utterly unreasonable.

 

[Northern Light]

Post-truth society; first narrative that has legs in the media is the one that's considered true. No one knew what happened, not even the family (who was in the hallway), but the popularized narrative for around two weeks was that the mother saw that the daughter was pushed (untrue).

Anyways, from Matlow:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1268943177400098817

Defunding is a term that can be easily confused with eliminating, since it conveys no limit (How much are you going to defund?)- as such, Matlow needs to clarify whether he wants to just reduce police funding, or to eliminate it completely as the latter narrative is trending at the moment.

You know that the moment the police is eliminated, the rich will instantly turn to unaccountable private security- after all, it's what happens in countries with corrupt/inefficient police systems, like Brazil or South Africa.

He has clearly expressed support for reprioritizing a portion of the police budget, not disbanding the police.