Mississauga Pearson Transit Hub | ?m | ?s | GTAA

[dowlingm]

Could they get rid of most stops in-between but keep larger stops like Aldershot and Niagra Falls?

What preclearance requires is essentially sealing the train. Theoretically you could just seal part of the train and make stops but that’s the kind of thing that the post 9/11 security regime likely ended. This is not just about immigration but customs also.

One alternative I have floated in the past would be for all Niagara Falls NY Amtrak services to operate to a CBSA/CBP post at Niagara Falls ON with GO and/or VIA handling all onward travel as purely internal services (but giving three possible daily connections to NYC rather than one).

 

[mdrejhon]

Would this preclearance system also be in effect at Union Station and all others on the Maple Leaf Services to the US? (ie Oakville, Aldershot, Grimsby, Niagra Falls)?

And Hamilton West Harbour, especially as it becomes fully utilized.

What preclearance requires is essentially sealing the train. Theoretically you could just seal part of the train and make stops but that’s the kind of thing that the post 9/11 security regime likely ended. This is not just about immigration but customs also.

One alternative I have floated in the past would be for all Niagara Falls NY Amtrak services to operate to a CBSA/CBP post at Niagara Falls ON with GO and/or VIA handling all onward travel as purely internal services (but giving three possible daily connections to NYC rather than one).

Today, it's possible to electronically seal a train coach in a relatively simple way, on a per-coach basis -- no mechanical locks or impediments.

If an emergency occurs (e.g. fire on train) there would be no impediment to evacuating the train -- coaches aren't actually physically locked -- the electronic "seal indicator" would simply be indicated as now broken and the train will need to be customs-cleared at the border.

The barrier is bureaucratic obstacles preventing the ability to authorize/implement such a system. But if such is permitted, there is no reason why a Hamilton West Harbour/Aldershot/Niagara Falls stop could be included on such an Amtrak route.

Redundancy such as infrared cameras above doors can be used as a backup, if it would help lubricate such legislation permitting per-coach electronic seals as a valid method of permitting multi-stops on both sides of the border.

Maybe not this decade or next, but -- when electrification reaches Hamilton by 2041 (as per Metrolinx 2041 plan), there might be a drive to electrify all he way to Niagara Falls to connect to a theoretical electrified Empire Corridor for HSR-lite type (Acela Express style) service by the ~2050s. To make such a service attractive and speedy through the border, it may require a serious discussion about permitting per-coach electronic seals and/or onboard preclearance. It will likely depend on the security regime almost two generations from now.

 

[dowlingm]

And Hamilton West Harbour, especially as it becomes fully utilized.


Today, it's possible to electronically seal a train coach in a relatively simple way, on a per-coach basis -- no mechanical locks or impediments.

If an emergency occurs (e.g. fire on train) there would be no impediment to evacuating the train -- coaches aren't actually physically locked -- the electronic "seal indicator" would simply be indicated as now broken and the train will need to be customs-cleared at the border.

Apart from the fact that there seems to be minimal interest on getting Amtrak/VIA into West Harbour since the project began, the problem is that you still can't take anyone in the unsealed coaches from the intermediate stops into the US, or you have to clear them at the border which defeats the purpose. Splitting services at a single border post (given the bridge and the realities of the US-Canadian relationship this would be on the Ontario side) would have created the most efficient transfer (anyone delayed by immigration could take the next train rather than holding the entire service in the through model) but the time to have done that was likely before Niagara Falls NY Amtrak was remodelled.

On the other hand, a "pure" preclearance model reverts Maple Leaf to being an Amtrak service as Adirondack and Cascades are, and therefore a bunch of expenses would come off VIA's books. A pure terminal preclearance train could also be expected to be punctual enough to be able to use one of those guaranteed lift bridge slot times that GO wants to negotiate for the Welland Canal.

 

[mdrejhon]

Apart from the fact that there seems to be minimal interest on getting Amtrak/VIA into West Harbour since the project began, the problem is that you still can't take anyone in the unsealed coaches from the intermediate stops into the US, or you have to clear them at the border which defeats the purpose. Splitting services at a single border post (given the bridge and the realities of the US-Canadian relationship this would be on the Ontario side) would have created the most efficient transfer (anyone delayed by immigration could take the next train rather than holding the entire service in the through model) but the time to have done that was likely before Niagara Falls NY Amtrak was remodelled.

On the other hand, a "pure" preclearance model reverts Maple Leaf to being an Amtrak service as Adirondack and Cascades are, and therefore a bunch of expenses would come off VIA's books. A pure terminal preclearance train could also be expected to be punctual enough to be able to use one of those guaranteed lift bridge slot times that GO wants to negotiate for the Welland Canal.

This be true.

All of what I say is 2050s thinking when Hamilton is much bigger than today and West Harbour is a busy station warranting future new novel techniques such as on-board customs clearance (disembarkations at Niagara for those not cleared).

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Interesting topic. One thing I want to mention about preclearance. Not only do the trains have to be sterile but so do the station waiting areas and platforms. 1) does union have the space to build a segregated waiting area for US trains 2) with all the access points to the platforms how do you prevent access from a non cleared area (i.e. teamways, illegally crossing tracks)? Locking doors and platform screens?

Bringing the topic back to the Pearson Transit Hub. Would putting a rail station with US preclearance make any sense? I can see trains leaving Union running normal service with customs checks at the border and precleared trains leaving Pearson and running express to US border cities such as Buffalo/Detroit and then running as regular service in the US. It certainly would help Pearson's goal of becoming a massive connection point between North America and Overseas.

 

[ShonTron]

Getting off topic, but I think a railway terminal with customs and immigration control makes more sense in Niagara Falls (ON or NY) or Buffalo than in Toronto. This would better serve passenger rail demands between Toronto and Niagara Region, while providing a link with US-based rail and bus connections. Imagine a regional rail line from Toronto connecting with Amtrak trains in Niagara Falls and Buffalo, a major improvement over the status quo, which is one daily VIA/Amtrak train currently operating.

 

[crs1026]

Getting off topic, but I think a railway terminal with customs and immigration control makes more sense in Niagara Falls (ON or NY) or Buffalo than in Toronto. This would better serve passenger rail demands between Toronto and Niagara Region, while providing a link with US-based rail and bus connections. Imagine a regional rail line from Toronto connecting with Amtrak trains in Niagara Falls and Buffalo, a major improvement over the status quo, which is one daily VIA/Amtrak train currently operating.

I haven't been on the Maple Leaf in a long time, so I don't know what they do at the border....but.... customs clearance these days is far more about what the computer says than what the people say or do in response to the border screener. I can't see why there couldn't be a wifi-type system that would let customs people screen people at their seats in the trains at the border. Probably pretty quick and easy. Pre-clear people the same way the airlines do.

There would be a handful of people referred for secondary screen who would have to leave the train. Maybe a few get left behind and end up on Greyhound. Maybe we have to accept some of that.

Anyways, a better screening process at the border is probably more practical than trying to insulate/secure coaches en route from Toronto.

- Paul

 

[strookie]

I haven't been on the Maple Leaf in a long time, so I don't know what they do at the border....but.... customs clearance these days is far more about what the computer says than what the people say or do in response to the border screener. I can't see why there couldn't be a wifi-type system that would let customs people screen people at their seats in the trains at the border. Probably pretty quick and easy. Pre-clear people the same way the airlines do.

There would be a handful of people referred for secondary screen who would have to leave the train. Maybe a few get left behind and end up on Greyhound. Maybe we have to accept some of that.

Anyways, a better screening process at the border is probably more practical than trying to insulate/secure coaches en route from Toronto.

- Paul

The problem is, just like with what's happening on airlines these days, you'll end up with a belligerent passenger, already on the train, who is requested by CBP to leave the train but refuses.

My solution is that the cross border train is extra long and consists of cars in the front that are sealed until crossing the border, a special CBP car in the middle with primary and secondary inspection booths and holding cells in the middle of the consist, and coaches on the latter half. The passengers are given tickets for the front cars but they must board the back coaches and walk through them toward the CBP car to get their final seat. The conductor stops the train at each station with only the latter half lined up at the platform, permitting both boarding and getting off. Just before the border crossing, you unhook the latter coaches and the CBP car, leaving them in Canada, along with the hapless passengers who couldn't get precleared and the CBP officers.

 

[gweed123]

One alternative I have floated in the past would be for all Niagara Falls NY Amtrak services to operate to a CBSA/CBP post at Niagara Falls ON with GO and/or VIA handling all onward travel as purely internal services (but giving three possible daily connections to NYC rather than one).

I think this is the most logical option. It would also fit well into a hybrid GO/Via kind of system, where GO assumes responsibility for longer distance trips (Niagara Falls, London, Peterborough, etc) using coaches that are a hybrid between what GO operates and what Via operates. Run a semi-express service from Toronto to Niagara Falls (stops at Union, Oakville, West Harbour, St Catharines, Niagara Falls), and then just have a little shuttle train that brings people across to the Niagara Falls, NY station, where they can connect to much more frequent Amtrak service.

If people book a Toronto-New York trip, for example, they would be placed on an express GO train that arrived in NF 30-45 prior to the departure of the Amtrak train. For a trip the other way, it wouldn't be as big of a deal since the GO service would likely be hourly.

 

[Urban Sky]

If people book a Toronto-New York trip, for example, they would be placed on an express GO train that arrived in NF 30-45 prior to the departure of the Amtrak train. For a trip the other way, it wouldn't be as big of a deal since the GO service would likely be hourly.

30-45 minutes? What makes you optimistic that it wouldn't have to be more border processing time than on the (pre-Brexit) French-English border (i.e. Eurostar terminals in London, Paris and Brussels) currently...?

 

[gweed123]

30-45 minutes? What makes you optimistic that it wouldn't have to be more border processing time than on the (pre-Brexit) French-English border (i.e. Eurostar terminals in London, Paris and Brussels) currently...?

Takes about 15-20 mins to get through pre-clearance (excluding security check) at Pearson most times. I figured this would be about the same.

 

[Streety McCarface]

30-45 minutes? What makes you optimistic that it wouldn't have to be more border processing time than on the (pre-Brexit) French-English border (i.e. Eurostar terminals in London, Paris and Brussels) currently...?

Schengen area residents require exit stamps when leaving that area, so you not only have to go through Schengen customs but also UK customs. It isn't the same going in the opposite direction because there's no Exit stamp required for leaving the UK. Also, Eurostar trains are like 20 cars, Amtrak trains are like 4 (and usually not full). It really depends on the number of staff but still, you're not going through customs twice.

 

[WillTo]

Schengen area residents require exit stamps when leaving that area, so you not only have to go through Schengen customs but also UK customs. It isn't the same going in the opposite direction because there's no Exit stamp required for leaving the UK. Also, Eurostar trains are like 20 cars, Amtrak trains are like 4 (and usually not full). It really depends on the number of staff but still, you're not going through customs twice.

UK requires passports to be checked upon exiting the UK. They don't stamp it but you need to get your passport scanned and the agent will match it to your face. Then desk #2 is French border control.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...519524/Exit-checks-what-you-need-to-know.html

 

[Urban Sky]

Takes about 15-20 mins to get through pre-clearance (excluding security check) at Pearson most times. I figured this would be about the same.

You have a constant stream of passengers arriving at the pre-clearance facility at Pearson vs. hundreds of passengers arriving every 1 or 2 hours at once at your cross-border facility at Niagara Falls or wherever you want to place it. The latter will be dramatically more difficult to staff in an efficient and economic manner...

Schengen area residents require exit stamps when leaving that area, so you not only have to go through Schengen customs but also UK customs. It isn't the same going in the opposite direction because there's no Exit stamp required for leaving the UK. Also, Eurostar trains are like 20 cars, Amtrak trains are like 4 (and usually not full). It really depends on the number of staff but still, you're not going through customs twice.

Asked differently: Border checks currently take 60-120 minutes while taking place on board the Amtrak train. What makes you believe that the checks can be done in a station in about half the current time?

UK requires passports to be checked upon exiting the UK. They don't stamp it but you need to get your passport scanned and the agent will match it to your face. Then desk #2 is French border control.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...519524/Exit-checks-what-you-need-to-know.html

Sounds (and confirmed by personal experience - I commuted regularly by train between my family's home in Frankfurt and my university in Leeds between 2009 and 2013) a bit less extensive than the typical Canadian-American border treatment...

 

[steveintoronto]

UK requires passports to be checked upon exiting the UK. They don't stamp it but you need to get your passport scanned and the agent will match it to your face. Then desk #2 is French border control.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...519524/Exit-checks-what-you-need-to-know.html

Whoa! I couldn't remember any of this other than the sombre quick check by French control, took less than a minute, and ditto returning to UK, one glance and I'm in...if it was staffed at all a decade back, but here's what's new:

The Home Office is introducing new checks on travellers leaving Britain by rail and sea. How will they work and will the new requirements cause any problems?

Security issues, and of course, now the pending Brexit fiasco are complicating things.