Toronto Ontario Place | ?m | ?s | Infrastructure ON

No one is arguing that every component of Ontario Place ought to be preserved; namely, just the cinesphere and pods.

With respect to the other elements, you might be inclined to say: "no love loss?" (sic)

Though to be honest, the other extant original elements (including the Michael Hough landscaping) are there to be *taken under consideration*; after all, Ontario Place *was* designed as an ensemble, and a properly conceived heritage study *has* to account for that. (And who knows; maybe even some of the restaurant clusters can be reused, elsewhere if not here--they do seem "dismountable" enough; hey, who needs food trucks or shipping containers.)
 
New column from Martin Regg Cohn about OP.

In it, he mentions the notion of a Ferris Wheel in passing (non-derisivly)

However, his principle thesis is that relocating the Ontario Science Centre to OP might make sense.

I have to say, I'm rather taken with the idea.

OSC is a great institution. But its also oddly located and long in the tooth.

Shifting OSC to OP, including the pods and Cinesphere seems entirely on point and a great chance for renewing both.

That said, OP would need other attractions, and would have to address public access to the grounds/water's edge as well as dealing w/outstanding issues around transit access, the parking lots and Lakeshore.

While the OSC site should not simply be sold to highest bidder.

The lower portion should be returned to state of nature restoring wetlands and natural habitats, and some sort of prominent public access from Don Mills should also be preserved.

The balance could be developed but should achieve quality architecture and a contribution to the welfare of the abutting Flemingdon Park area.

https://www.thestar.com/politics/po...should-rethink-how-we-redo-ontario-place.html
 
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Ontario Place's location is arguably in a much more appropriate setting, given its purpose (situated in a natural ravine). Its interplay with the natural environment is really well-executed. I always enjoyed the way the escelators descend into the valley, giving one a view of the greenery (in the summer).

I don't think it is "oddly" located. Perhaps, it is 'out of the way' for most tourists. I doubt it will move and I would prefer that it remain as is. What would happen to the extant buildings, if it were to relocate?
 
Ontario Place's location is arguably in a much more appropriate setting, given its purpose (situated in a natural ravine). Its interplay with the natural environment is really well-executed. I always enjoyed the way the escelators descend into the valley, giving one a view of the greenery (in the summer).

I don't think it is "oddly" located. Perhaps, it is 'out of the way' for most tourists. I doubt it will move and I would prefer that it remain as is. What would happen to the extant buildings, if it were to relocate?

There's no actual proposal on the table.

Though the column clearly discusses the land value at OSC which would imply the columnist's desire to see development, presumably residential in character and hirise.

I don't see a scenario such as this in which the existing buildings would be kept.

Personally, I have fond memories of the escalators as well, and the no longer present fountains.

But otherwise I think the building itself is unremarkable, it also doesn't make good use of its natural setting, as the lower level is mostly windowless. But I digress.
 
The main building has been largely destroyed (its front facade, anyway) by a careless renovation.
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Toronto Public Library

If it ever did come to a point where the OSC were to be relocated, I would hope that the triforce-like building would be retained. I don't generally love brutalism, but this is a really neat building with plenty of interesting details and spaces:
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Toronto Public Library

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Scott Rogers

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Toronto Modern

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Diamond Schmitt Architects

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Ontario Innovation

Bonus shots from the ravine floor (I think the first one might be mislabeled, as there appears to be tropical foliage; whatever the case, enjoy):
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David Ceballos

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binnyg
 
Regardless of what happened to the front building, has anyone considered how from a modernist-preservation standpoint, moving OSC to OP is as bone-headed as redeveloping OP?

(And also; this thread doesn't require being overloaded with OSC photos)
 
The science centre is a treasure, just like OP. Like it OP, it needs a bit of love - it's old, a little stale, and hasn't really been reinvested in for 25 years now.

The location is going to be much more accessible in a few years with the Crosstown - Just renovate it, restore it to some of it's brutalist glory, update it's exhibits, and watch as it flourishes again.

Ontario Place can be something different.
 
The science centre is a treasure, just like OP. Like it OP, it needs a bit of love - it's old, a little stale, and hasn't really been reinvested in for 25 years now.

The location is going to be much more accessible in a few years with the Crosstown - Just renovate it, restore it to some of it's brutalist glory, update it's exhibits, and watch as it flourishes again.

Ontario Place can be something different.

If we were starting from scratch, I would support *A* Science Centre at Ontario Place. But to move THE Science Centre strikes me as boneheaded. As you say, if we're talking about Toronto's architectural treasures from that era, you can put OP and OSC side by side. I guess opinions about architecture are as varied as anything else but it's a signature piece of Brutalism from that era and a signature building by Raymond Moriyama.

I've seen people suggest a school or something could move into the building - maybe. But Cohn's article is pretty darned poorly written. If you're going to argue the main use of the OSC is moving, you should either articulate a new use for the building or explain why it should be razed. He just vaguely mentions "redevelopment," totally ignoring the architectural heritage of the site which,in turn, undermines his arguments about Ontario Place. You either get why both places are important or you don't.

(And, yeah, it's a shame some of the brutalism at the front of OSC got lost, though I think in general it makes the frontage way more accessible and less intimidating than it was. It's fair to say it was "careless," perhaps but I look at the pictures above and, let's be honest, the front door doesn't make it look like a place you wanna take your kids. The brutalism inside still works, as does the way the building climbs down the valley - something Cohn never references in his talk of the parking lots and whatnot.)

For that matter - plenty of "world class cities," like London and Chicago and even Las Vegas (!) have impressive ferris wheels. There is nothing wrong with a ferris wheel. The problem was that Doug had it tossed in as part of a backroom deal that included a bunch of other simplistic ideas like shopping malls and hotel where you can park your boat if you're not riding the monorail. That said, perhaps there's some expert here who knows about flight paths and restrictions around Billy Bishop but I'd be surprised if there's anywhere on site you could actually build a ferris wheel of substance at Ontario Place. Even the waterslide has a red airport light thingie on it.

So, not the smartest article, IMHO.
 
As 1990s remuddlings of c1970 classics go, the OSC frontage redo shouldn't be used against the OSC any more than the Bud Stage should be used against Ontario Place.

Though re the notion of casinos as internalized environments that are irrational at waterfront locations: ironically, as 50 years worth of kids will tell you, the "best" part of the OSC has been the most "internalized": the tellingly-named Science Arcade. (Of course, I'm skirting over the fact that at the OSC, getting there is half the fun, so to speak--subtly speaking, it's all about the procession...)
 
If we were starting from scratch, I would support *A* Science Centre at Ontario Place. But to move THE Science Centre strikes me as boneheaded. As you say, if we're talking about Toronto's architectural treasures from that era, you can put OP and OSC side by side. I guess opinions about architecture are as varied as anything else but it's a signature piece of Brutalism from that era and a signature building by Raymond Moriyama.

I've seen people suggest a school or something could move into the building - maybe. But Cohn's article is pretty darned poorly written. If you're going to argue the main use of the OSC is moving, you should either articulate a new use for the building or explain why it should be razed. He just vaguely mentions "redevelopment," totally ignoring the architectural heritage of the site which,in turn, undermines his arguments about Ontario Place. You either get why both places are important or you don't.

(And, yeah, it's a shame some of the brutalism at the front of OSC got lost, though I think in general it makes the frontage way more accessible and less intimidating than it was. It's fair to say it was "careless," perhaps but I look at the pictures above and, let's be honest, the front door doesn't make it look like a place you wanna take your kids. The brutalism inside still works, as does the way the building climbs down the valley - something Cohn never references in his talk of the parking lots and whatnot.)

For that matter - plenty of "world class cities," like London and Chicago and even Las Vegas (!) have impressive ferris wheels. There is nothing wrong with a ferris wheel. The problem was that Doug had it tossed in as part of a backroom deal that included a bunch of other simplistic ideas like shopping malls and hotel where you can park your boat if you're not riding the monorail. That said, perhaps there's some expert here who knows about flight paths and restrictions around Billy Bishop but I'd be surprised if there's anywhere on site you could actually build a ferris wheel of substance at Ontario Place. Even the waterslide has a red airport light thingie on it.

So, not the smartest article, IMHO.

While the column certainly wasn't an architecture one.............I think it reflected popular sentiment.

Many people, perhaps a majority of OP visitors over the years have a fondness for the pods and cinesphere. The design has withstood time in many respects.

OSC on the other hand I never hear mentioned by anyone not devoted to architecture for its own sake.

Brutalism remains profoundly unpopular with the larger public, as it was almost from its inception.

People tend to find it somewhere between unremarkable/bland and offensive and few place a value on it.

One may appreciate it in a nuanced way; or more comprehensively as a unique example of a certain time........but one cannot say it has broadly captured the public imagination at all, really, and certainly not in a positive way.

This City has lost much that could and in my opinion should have been preserved.

I can't say the OSC reaches that level for me, even though there are aspects I appreciate and appreciated.

As an adult, and a lover of science, I haven't been in there in 10 years, at least.

That's partially about money to refurb exhibits and the like.

It's also about the building, the area in which it's located and other factors presumably (not necessarily) addressed in a relo.

I would not want to see it torn down only to be replaced by generic crap.

But nor am i overly sentimental for what was......or what remains of what was, at that site.
 
The Science Centre is a wonderful building. But the exhibits need a major upgrade. I was shocked when I went with my kids that it looked basically like it was when I was a kid. The kids didn't notice but I did. Considering the technology available to kids today a major upgrade is totally necessary. Not any different than Ontario Place. Both are great looking complexes that just need some significant programming upgrades.

With the Crosstown underway and a possible Relief line coming the OSC is in a great central location for something spectacular.
 
Brutalism remains profoundly unpopular with the larger public, as it was almost from its inception.

Maybe that's the key problem with your perspective

Actually, when you talk about "almost from its inception": when I visited the OSC as a kid, which *was* practically "from its inception", I'd deem the architecture to be *very much* part of its attraction. And that was when I was too young to be programmed with "Brutalism is bad" or whatever--nor was I aware of such a sentiment at a broader level. It really *was* a new and spectacular thing, even to "the larger public": there was nothing "profoundly unpopular" there...
 
While the column certainly wasn't an architecture one.............I think it reflected popular sentiment.

Many people, perhaps a majority of OP visitors over the years have a fondness for the pods and cinesphere. The design has withstood time in many respects.

OSC on the other hand I never hear mentioned by anyone not devoted to architecture for its own sake.

Brutalism remains profoundly unpopular with the larger public, as it was almost from its inception.

People tend to find it somewhere between unremarkable/bland and offensive and few place a value on it.

All fair points and it's ultimately subjective. Without venturing too far off topic, Brutalism gets a bad rap. (Good article about it in the Globe from last year here!) I think, no matter to what extent people "like" it or "place a value on it" or to which it's "captured the public imagination," that OSC is unquestionably a signature piece of Toronto's architectural heritage. (I could say the same of other Brutalist buildings, like Robarts Library but, as I believe I said, I think the way Moriyama negotiated the valley is as significant as the way Zeidler treated the lake. The renovation undermines its import, but that's really only the facade.) I would suspect - and I'm just spitballing here - that if you talked with architects about the relative importance of the two projects, that OSC is at least as signficant as an exemplar of Moriyama's work whereas Ontario Place... it's almost an anomaly. It's not like others went off and built pods and geodesic spheres.

I grew up in an era where both Ontario Place and the OSC were regular visits and I'd love nothing more than to see both operating at the peak of their potential. I would also say that while the Cinesphere is a treasure, and the pods are wonderful to behold FROM THE OUTSIDE, I never found them that useful or interesting on the inside. Over the course of my childhood visits, I remember them being a baseball museum and I don't know what it was but they had the Canadarm there at some point, and there was a lego thing and a restaurant... Can anyone think of an awesome thing they did in the pods?

(And I'll echo what was just said above. As a kid, I had no idea what "Brutalism" was but I could appreciate the unique brushed-concrete look of the OSC, the bridges across the valley and the escalators down below etc. If you blindfolded me, drove me there today and took the blindfold off anywhere in the building I'd know exactly where I was, instantly.)

In short: the architecture and function of the OSC far surpass the pods. Even the Forum, with its silly, wonderful stage, was more "unique" in terms of the convergence of form and function and I'd say the same of Children's Village. To be clear - I don't want the pods going anywhere. But let's not over-romanticize them either.
 
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