Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

Canada Line isn't undersized at all. The P3 contract specified a low capacity and it was built to meet it.

Isn't that the problem then? It is not undersized to the terms of the P3 contract - it is undersized relative to the emergent demand, which the decision-makers at the time was willingly or unwillingly blind to. Just like the potential foolishness we may face if we aren't careful about determining what level of capacity the line should be expected to serve in the future - you simply can't expect to lowball that and expect DB to provide you with a solution that maximizes future flexibility. In the case of Ontario Line at 10B a pop - this is a hundred-year decision.

AoD
 
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This is probably a dumb suggestion for several reasons, but is Elon Musk's Boring Company anywhere near prime time to be considered for these projects? Are the tunnels he is drilling too narrow for light rail?
 
Do you have a source for this? I was told otherwise. The LRTs cant even handle computer controlled operations as far as I was informed.

From the Crosstown LRT website itself, at this link:

ATC
  • Stands for Automatic Train Control. A remote controlled system in which train operations are controlled entirely by software from a centralized control room. Crosstown LRVs will operate with ATC.
 
Isn't that the problem then? It is not undersized to the terms of the P3 contract - it is undersized relative to the emergent demand, which the decision-makers at the time was willingly or unwillingly blind to. Just like the potential foolishness we may face if we aren't careful about determining what level of capacity the line should be expected to serve in the future - you simply can't expect to lowball that and expect DB to provide you with a solution that maximizes future flexibility. In the case of Ontario Line at 10B a pop - this is a hundred-year decision.

AoD
Going by Metrolinx (Verster @ 10:20 > )
"400,000 riders per work-week day" are to be using this line.

Someone's pissed in the Kool-Aid...

For six-car Alstom Metropolis metros as per Sydney:
There will be three doors per side per carriage and no internal doors between the carriages. In a 6-car configuration the trains will sit 378 people, with a total capacity of 1,100.
Sydney Metro - Wikipedia
My math shows that if that load is spread equally over trains running both ways for 24 hours, it would take a train every 7.92 minutes (for each direction) to do it.

In the event, for some odd reason, 4 a.m. and 4 p.m. will show radically different loading. Some more comment from the the Bamboozle Boys at QP is in order...or send out their boy, Phil, to handle it. And this is just the segment terminating at Eglinton.

This is a job for RER, nothing less.

As a comparison: Line 1
With an average of 915,000 passenger trips each weekday recorded during the fourth quarter of 2017,[3]
 
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Regarding the tunnel turns, don't forget that the Ottawa tunnel and stations were all bored out with road headers. Only a few entrances are cut and cover. It's a practical solution for tighter curves and dense urban areas.
Take a look at how smooth the line is compared to either the TTC proposed DRL, or the O-Line:
181570
https://ottawaproject.wordpress.com...f-releases-route-for-downtown-transit-tunnel/
 
... the Canada line got named because the Federal Government (Paul Martin) forced it as part of condition for funding. Its almost identical to why this is going to be called the Ontario Line (in this case a Provincial Government (Ford) forcing it for funding purposes)
 
Take a look at how smooth the line is compared to either the TTC proposed DRL, or the O-Line:

https://ottawaproject.wordpress.com...f-releases-route-for-downtown-transit-tunnel/

You'll note the curve is quite wide at Rideau. Obviously the street capable citadis trains can do much tighter turns, but they wanted to keep the design speed around that curve at 70 kph.

This map is a bit out of date though, that's the previous alignment which was going to be around 45m down

The newer alignment that was actually built is a bit less smooth so they could move it under Queen st at only about 18m down. This shaved about 700 million off the cost


Ottawa+Confederation+Tunnel+Graphic.jpg
 
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^ Indeed, Ottawa didn't use TBM's (Tunnel Boring Machines) which Toronto, by virtue of logic, would have to favour due to various factors: (Although sections could be done this way)

Hat Tip to :
Regarding the tunnel turns, don't forget that the Ottawa tunnel and stations were all bored out with road headers. Only a few entrances are cut and cover. It's a practical solution for tighter curves and dense urban areas.

LRT Tunnel: Boring beneath Bytown
ROBERT BOSTELAAR, OTTAWA CITIZEN 10.11.2013

OTTAWA — Boring machines? Not for Ottawa’s light-rail project.

We’re talking, to be clear, about tunnel boring machines, aka TBMs or “moles.” TBMs are giant cylinders with spinning-disc faces that rip through substrate like monstrous meat slicers; one of the world’s largest, the 4,000-tonne “Big Becky,” just finished chewing out a 10-kilometre tunnel beneath Niagara Falls to supply more water to the Sir Adam Beck Generating Station.

Boring? You wouldn’t say so if you were in Big Becky’s path.

But the consortium building the LRT line considers TBMs too unwieldy for the 2.5-km Ottawa excavation that it describes as a “short tunnel.” (Relative to such undertakings as the Boston Big Dig, it IS at the lower end of the scale).

So in place of a Big or even Medium-Sized Becky, we get a smaller and more flexible, though still preposing, alternative.

Meet (or maybe hope you don’t) the MT720, a 135-tonne “tunnelling roadheader” produced by Swedish mining and engineering specialist Sandvik AB.

As long and tall as a semi-truck, the MT720 moves on tracks that could have been borrowed from an M1 Abrams battle tank. At its business end is a hydraulically stabilized boom wielding a pair of rotating drums, each bearing more studs than an ’80s punk band.

Formed of sintered carbide tungsten, the studs, or picks, are as hard as sapphire and able to grind through rock with uniaxial compressive strength (UCS) ratings exceeding 120 megapascals. In lay terms, that’s super hard stone. For the Ottawa project, the contractors expect to encounter nothing harder than 78 MPa, and that only in two limestone-and-shale bedrock formations that comprise 26 per cent of the tunnel route.

Debris produced by the cutting drums drops to an apron below and is carried by conveyor to the back of the machine, where it can be loaded in trucks for removal. Trailing behind the assembly is a hawser-thick, 1000-volt cable that carries electricity from a fixed source to the motors powering the grinders, the tracks, the conveyor. The MT720 won’t operate if it’s not plugged in.

Unlike an Abrams tank, Sandvik’s roadheader is designed to advance slowly and then retreat. This allows the tunnellers to immediately secure each short stretch of excavation by inserting bolts far into the walls and coating the newly exposed walls and ceiling with sprayed concrete, known as shotcrete.

To speed the process, the contractors are bringing in three MT720s — one for each end of the tunnel and a third to work from the middle. One has already arrived (in several shipping containers) from New York, where it was used in the $7.3-billion East Side Access project to build rail tunnels from Long Island and Queens to a new station 12 storeys below Manhattan’s Grand Central Terminal. A second MT720, also from the New York project, is expected about Oct. 25, and the third is en route from Austria and should reach Ottawa in mid-November.

Daily, each machine is expected to grind through 200 to 450 cubic metres of rock — just how much will depends on the abrasivity, compressive strength, number of joints and other qualities of the material encountered — while moving forward an average of three metres. So for the whole project, that’s nine metres a day.

The availability of the New York machines may well have been a factor in the decision to use roadheaders. Erik Eberhardt, a professor of geological engineering at the University of British Columbia, says two kilometres is generally viewed as the tunnel length at which TBMs, which dig faster than roadheaders, start to become a more attractive choice. But other considerations, including the type and variety of materials to be excavated and the cost of bringing in equipment, also come into play.

The builders point out that roadheaders can adjust to any excavation shape, a key benefit in an Ottawa project with three underground caverns, or future stations, along its relatively short length. Tunnel boring machines dig at one set diameter, so other equipment must be brought in for any design variation. And the cutting heads be can changed fairly quickly to suit different rock types — again not possible with TBMs.
[...]

TorStar had a relatively good article up yesterday, the first to actually question the engineering claims in the large media:

Over the Don and under Fort York — where experts say building the Ontario Line could get tricky

It only begins to touch on some of the challenges to the O-Line as proposed. Btw: The article's report of "University of Toronto’s Eric Miller said one option for crossing the Don River would be to run trains across the existing 450-metre bridge at Millwood Rd. " is pretty-much a non-starter. Yes it could be done, and no, it wouldn't be done for a number of reasons, not least that if this line if built, it will have to be a lot heavier than as being proposed.

I'm a little taken aback at some of the other claims in the article as per engineering challenges/solutions/possibilities, but I digress. You'll be seeing a lot more detailed engineering critiques in the next while.
 
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New Star article up w/some discussion on the technical challenges of going over the Don River near Eastern, under Fort York, achieving desirable capacity and where a yard might go.


In the course of the article, its now said they (the province) are musing about a yard facility in Thorncliffe. The story on this yard seems to change a lot.

A cursory review of the area, given landform and building constraints leaves me thinking they are eyeing CP's Leaside Yard........which might be big enough.......though there would be many challenges in using it, assuming CP were willing to part with it.

I don't really see room for a maintenance facility of size. But perhaps I'm missing a more obvious choice.
 
The story on this yard seems to change a lot.
QP is making this up as they go. You'll note the almost absolute absence of anyone with big boy pants on speaking for it. When Verster did speak last week, he got some facts very wrong, albeit in his defence, it's not his file, and he's forced to defend what the boys in short pants are saying. Not an enviable position.
 
We'll get back to you in 2028...

"I asked Metrolinx for any background reports that supported the idea the Ontario Line could be built for $10.9 billion by 2027. They told me I would have to file an FOI." Ben Spurr, April 16, 2019
 
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"I asked Metrolinx for any background reports that supported the idea the Ontario Line could be built for $10.9 billion by 2027. They told me I would have to file an FOI." Ben Spurr, April 16, 2019
lol! I'm just so shocked...shocked I tell you! Let me guess, this was just one of the scenarios put on the table for view at Metrolinx HQ. Ford and Fedelli, Partners of Perniciousness were attracted to the sparkling sprinkles someone had splashed on this particular scheme, since Metrolinx considered it so cheap as to not be taken seriously, so had to do something to make it look at least desirable. I'm sure the practical schemes weren't even considered by the dynamic duo.

The sprinkles became the Truth!
Homer: Donuts - is there anything they can't do?

I'll try and find Spurr's Twitter and link it.

Here it is:
https://twitter.com/BenSpurr
 
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