Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[SaugeenJunction]

Holy shit this thread blew up. I go to write a final and this happens. But seriously, this is a huge disappointment. I'd much rather see the line go up to Sheppard before it veers west, it's Yonge crowding we're trying to reduce.

I think it's awesome. It's still a massive improvement over the original Phase 1 plan. Getting to Eglinton helps divert way more riders off of Line 1. Also, automated trains, though slightly smaller than subways, can increase capacity as they can run in shorter headways (TTC Line 1 with ATC is 1m 50 seconds I think, and the Canada Line in Vancouver could theoretically pull 1m 30 seconds). Sending the line West isn't bad either. Liberty Village will be served, and GO riders can transfer there to avoid Union.

 

[44 North]

I wonder if Vancouver knew that cut-and-cover would lead to some complaints - but they would allow it in the PPP since they knew it would save enough money to make it worth the complaints.
I suspect that they did not foresee the short 40m stations though.

Yeah Canada Line shines in its speed and cost of construction, but in terms of being a good model of subway building not so much. Grossly undersized and incompatible with the rest of the system. I'd still prefer its flaws over things like UPX fiasco and parts of Transit City, however not the greatest model otherwise. And naturally any net savings with their quick-n-dirty approach will be lost when they shell out to boost capacity over the decades.

This is so silly.

Off the top of my head:
1) You're discounting the quality of the reputation of the message-carrier, which is ridiculous.
2) The announced plan is two-thirds unfunded, even though his promise to one of the would-be funding partners was that, in return for scooping up their subway system, he'd fund it all and get it built faster, and he's actively campaigning against the leader of the third potential funding partner; how do we think all those conversations are gonna go?
3) There are no details about the "jaw dropping" technology that would miraculously deliver the Relief Line faster.
4) As a result of #3, there is no way to accurately assess the timelines for the city's most important transit project.
5) There are no details as to whether the city will be compensated for the literal hundreds of millions of dollars it has spent on these projects to-date and, I'd argue, more importantly, it likely wastes all the time spent planning it and thus further calls into question the slated project completion date.
6) Two of the city's priority transit projects aren't included at all.
7) The "plan" doesn't even show where the damn stops are going to be.
8) It's very stupid and wasteful (a reality which Conservatives at least used to profess to care about) to build subways for at least two of these projects, and budgeting is a closed-loop system, which means the opportunity cost is other important provincial priorities don't get funded.

And so on...

Next time, before you blithely question the motives of everyone else passing judgment on the merits of a proposal, perhaps apply at least a semi-critical lens to it.

Or, at the very least, make an argument based on facts and rational thought before trying to own the libs.

From past posts the guy doesn't really know TO and seems purely contrarian. Can never win. If Toronto prefers catenary over LIM, then Toronto is dumb because LIM is best. Toronto prefers 3rd rail over catenary, Toronto dumb because catenary best. Toronto uses LRV with catenary, Toronto dumb because subway is best. Then there's hydrogen and hyperloop cheerleading. If this Ontario Line was powered by donkey wheel I know who'd be defending it.

could be done with conventional subway but the bridge would need to handle subway train weights, not lighter metro trains. Can be a significant cost savings.

Hm, hold on. And "significant" savings? Trains like the T1 and TR are very much light trains. Mainline vehicles like GO or street trains like LRVs: heavy; Toronto Rocket: pretty darn light and on par with other subway/metro trains around the globe.

Now obviously a narrower profile leads to a weight reduction vs a larger train. But the gross weight per sq ft is still the same as a wider train. And the strength of a viaduct pier+girder between a 3m train or 2.5m one is a real drop in the bucket. Still other savings with narrower trains however (e.g tunneling).

 

[steveintoronto]

Phil Verster said that this line will carry 400k people per day at today's Metrolinx Board Meeting (25:53).

He didn't say much, almost glossed over it, but what he did say was a hundred times more informative than Dug Out. His claim for capacity was interesting, although he didn't add qualifers.

I think it would be better if the trains weren't split into 2 car sets, but instead be similar to the TR's.

The model of vehicle allows any configuration of up to (12 theoretical, 6 car trains typically) cars, as long as there's a driving car at either end.

 

[steveintoronto]

https://www.tvo.org/article/doug-fords-285-billion-toronto-transit-gambit

This:

The government will employ the P3 (public-private partnership) process but won't use the traditional "design, bid, build" approach, which it says can result in too many unanticipated and unpleasant surprises. Instead, it will simply tell prospective bidders what it wants, in broad strokes, allowing the bidders to come up with their own innovative approaches to meeting the criteria.

Many thanks! I've been looking for that in print. This is crucial, and don't be too afraid of this. This is exactly how REM developed. Look at it this way: Far better that it be from an investor(s) with deep pockets with an incentive to see it built as soon and efficiently as possible. It also means the Feds (as they did with REM via the InfraBank) will be far more willing to jump in rather than a skuz like Ford and his band of N'er-do-wells. No investor with scruples would work with Ford. Note that the Province was pushing their own Investment Bank a few weeks back. Interest? Zilch...I wonder why...lol.

I'm actually *relieved* to read that. This means there'll be interest from some int'l players who know what they're doing, how to arrange financing, how to promote and run it. They've done it before. And in many if not most cases, the munis have been very happy with the result.

 

[steveintoronto]

John Tory is being exposed for the bad leader that he is. He is an empty suit.

Not that I'm defending him, far from it, Mr Polished Oxfords and a Man of Manicure....but in reality, there isn't much he can do. It's a sad irony that the best hope to get this done right is by Private Investment and Capital, and overseen by the Feds via the InfraBank. Not the best, but a hell of a lot better than nothing.

 

[Haljackey]

As an outsider of Greater Toronto, I think you guys need whatever you can get as fast as possible. It may not be exactly want you wanted or needed, but it is something.

This is what Douggie is trying to do. He is going around the city, environmental assessments, community engagement, etc. as that stuff slows you down.

Is this the right way of doing things? No, but it's the most efficient.

Get shovels in the ground ASAP and get'er done.

 

[Cobra]

So it would appear the city will get 0 say where the stations go ... wow.

I'm sure they'll have a say on locations as the bidders will need the TTC data to determine the in-between stops

 

[robmausser]

I think it would be better if the trains weren't split into 2 car sets, but instead be similar to the TR's.

Agreed. Totally possible btw, the REM is only 2 car sets so they can run 1 car sets during late hours/weekends

Not needed on a line predicted to be as busy as this one.

Heres the same rolling stock for REM, but a longer 6 car 3rd rail variant. I suspect the Ontario Line would be more like this

 

[Cobra]

Can't argue that a change was needed because the status quo pretty much didn't got us nowhere, lines took forever for designs and construction while costs went out of control.

Not praising Ford necessarily but looking at the REM, it looks like a model that indeed works at getting things done faster while lowering the risks for all parties.

 

[Lyphe]

The new DRL plan makes so much more sense than the original short line.
Not only does it link major draws such as the science centre, exhibition, and ontario place ... but it'll be long enough to get real use. Love this new plan.

 

[Lyphe]

This is so silly.

Off the top of my head:
1) You're discounting the quality of the reputation of the message-carrier, which is ridiculous.
2) The announced plan is two-thirds unfunded, even though his promise to one of the would-be funding partners was that, in return for scooping up their subway system, he'd fund it all and get it built faster, and he's actively campaigning against the leader of the third potential funding partner; how do we think all those conversations are gonna go?
3) There are no details about the "jaw dropping" technology that would miraculously deliver the Relief Line faster.
4) As a result of #3, there is no way to accurately assess the timelines for the city's most important transit project.
5) There are no details as to whether the city will be compensated for the literal hundreds of millions of dollars it has spent on these projects to-date and, I'd argue, more importantly, it likely wastes all the time spent planning it and thus further calls into question the slated project completion date.
6) Two of the city's priority transit projects aren't included at all.
7) The "plan" doesn't even show where the damn stops are going to be.
8) It's very stupid and wasteful (a reality which Conservatives at least used to profess to care about) to build subways for at least two of these projects, and budgeting is a closed-loop system, which means the opportunity cost is other important provincial priorities don't get funded.

And so on...

Next time, before you blithely question the motives of everyone else passing judgment on the merits of a proposal, perhaps apply at least a semi-critical lens to it.

Or, at the very least, make an argument based on facts and rational thought before trying to own the libs.

Your post really comes across as political.

I'm not a huge fan of Doug Ford, but how in the world can you argue with what he announced today?
Not only was the plan a complete breath of fresh air, giving us exactly what we all know we should be doing ... from a proper length DRL to a Scarb extension with actual stops +++, but on top of that, he didn't mince words on funding and getting it done. He said he expected all levels of gov to pay, but that he'd build it solo if needed.

We finally have the big plan we wanted. Now lets support and push it forward instead of trying to pull it apart.

 

[ADRM]

Your post really comes across as political.

I'm not a huge fan of Doug Ford, but how in the world can you argue with what he announced today?

My post is itself an argument against being political, and it also lists literally 8 answers to your second question.

 

[syn]

To play devils advocate, those are all extensions of existing networks.

With the DRL (cough Ontario Line) we have a chance to choose any tech we want.

Good point.

The problem is the tech puts some limits on what we can do in the future, especially when it comes to expanding the line. The DRL West will have to use the same technology. What about future expansion?

When it comes to the DRL, the government keeps talking about new technology, efficiency, savings, etc. This is the one line that really should be a subway. Cost savings and efficiency don't seem to be a priority when it comes to suburban extensions. Funny how the same technology that isn't good enough for the suburbs is futuristic, advanced, etc. when it comes to the DRL.

If we really want to be efficient, why not scrap the 3 stop SSE and extend the Eglinton LRT into Scarborough, perhaps looped and underground where necessary? It could connect directly with the future Sheppard extension too. I'd also question why the SSE has to be a subway extension - there isn't anywhere on the subway I can head directly north without making a transfer (unless I don't get off at Union).

For all the talk about change, this plan is as political and questionable as any so far.

 

[Towered]

King and Sumach needs to keep the planned station...

And why is this ending at Eglinton?? It needs to go to Sheppard, bare minimum.

 

[Hopkins123]

As an outsider of Greater Toronto, I think you guys need whatever you can get as fast as possible. It may not be exactly want you wanted or needed, but it is something.

This is what Douggie is trying to do. He is going around the city, environmental assessments, community engagement, etc. as that stuff slows you down.

Is this the right way of doing things? No, but it's the most efficient.

Get shovels in the ground ASAP and get'er done.

Yes, the government could change on a dime in 2022 before any of this even comes to fruition. Expedience is key here. We've never had a government this invested in building subways since the Bill Davis years from my observation.