Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[nfitz]

Good thing the 504 has the pilot now because it's about to get a whole lot busier.

Not just Queen. The August 2018 Environmental Project Report notes that Sumach "station bisects the King streetcar line, and discontinuation of this service will be necessary during the construction at this location".

What they can do is run 501, 502, 503, and 504 west along Queen Street to Parliament, south on Parliament, and west on King Street. Presumably 501 heads up Spadina to Queen - though that's going to be congested. I wonder if a connection along John Street is feasible - if only temporarily. Hopefully service on Queen East and Parliament comes with some lane restrictions, as 504 always crawled from Sackville to King during the years it was running that way while the track was closed through Corktown, when they had those bridge problems.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm holding out hope that they'll be able to find a way to accommodate continued streetcar service throughout construction. When we built St Clair West Station, temporary wooden decking was used at surface level to allow the 512 to run on the surface while the Spadina Line and St Clair West was being built. The wooden decking used was actually really similar what's being used on the Crosstown today, with the major difference being that there aren't any streetcar tracks (obviously).

 

[smallspy]

I'm holding out hope that they'll be able to find a way to accommodate continued streetcar service throughout construction. When we built St Clair West Station, temporary wooden decking was used at surface level to allow the 512 to run on the surface while the Spadina Line and St Clair West was being built. The wooden decking used was actually really similar what's being used on the Crosstown today, with the major difference being that there aren't any streetcar tracks (obviously).

I wouldn't hold my breath on that. In the past the TTC was much more willing to try and make the streetcars work through construction zones, be it by detours, building temporary trackage, or even by buying a set of temporary crossovers in the not-so-distant past.

Unfortunately in the past 20-plus years, the default reaction of the Commission to any major construction work has been to exchange streetcars for buses, and hope that things will sort themselves out. Hell, that set of temporary crossovers I mentioned above? They used them once - during trackwork on Coxwell between Lower and Upper Gerrard around 1996. And have never used them again.

So yeah. I suspect that buses - and lots of them - will be the order of the day.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[micheal_can]

Bloor and Yonge used to have streetcars. Now they don't. Since the RL is not going to follow the 501 completely, can we expect that the 501 will not be removed?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Bloor and Yonge used to have streetcars. Now they don't. Since the RL is not going to follow the 501 completely, can we expect that the 501 will not be removed?

They did remove the HARBORD streetcar from Broadview Avenue to Lipton Loop (Gerrard, Carlaw, Riverdale, Pape, to Danforth) just for the Relief Line back in 1966.

From link.

 

[WislaHD]

Add it back.

 

[CapitalSeven]

Bloor and Yonge used to have streetcars. Now they don't. Since the RL is not going to follow the 501 completely, can we expect that the 501 will not be removed?

The have said explicitly it won't. They could change their mind. But realistically, the service has to remain east of parliament and west of University. It probably doesn't make sense to remove just the section where there are 4 stops, though the route and service may change.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I wouldn't hold my breath on that. In the past the TTC was much more willing to try and make the streetcars work through construction zones, be it by detours, building temporary trackage, or even by buying a set of temporary crossovers in the not-so-distant past.

Unfortunately in the past 20-plus years, the default reaction of the Commission to any major construction work has been to exchange streetcars for buses, and hope that things will sort themselves out. Hell, that set of temporary crossovers I mentioned above? They used them once - during trackwork on Coxwell between Lower and Upper Gerrard around 1996. And have never used them again.

So yeah. I suspect that buses - and lots of them - will be the order of the day.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I'm sure you're right, unfortunately.

This implications for the bus fleet concerns me however. Nowhere in the TTCs bus fleet plan have they planned for a long term suspension of the 501 (and potentially 504). I suppose we might have to end up buying extra buses to serve Queen during the duration of the suspension. Of course, the TTC isn't any stranger to unexpected long term streetcar suspensions

 

[TransitBart]

I choose to believe this is digging the extraction shaft for the TBM.

What is the high level plan for TTC’s 501 route during the construction years? As things like boreholes encroach on Queen Street, it won’t be very long before streetcar tracks and overhead are affected. There will be years of this. Even one small excavation can block the whole route.

Are we about to see the end of 501 as a continuous east-west route? Will this force bustitutions? Will that turn our concerns about streetcar availability upside down?

I’m not expecting anyone to have fine details worked out at this point.... but it’s an obvious impact that ought to have been anticipated at some level.

- Paul

1. Difficult to plan anything with a long lead - oh say a fleet - without a definite construction plan.
2. *sarcasm* How about planning the effing funding so that the planners can get on with the rest of the planning?

 

[TransitBart]

Not just Queen. The August 2018 Environmental Project Report notes that Sumach "station bisects the King streetcar line, and discontinuation of this service will be necessary during the construction at this location".

What they can do is run 501, 502, 503, and 504 west along Queen Street to Parliament, south on Parliament, and west on King Street. Presumably 501 heads up Spadina to Queen - though that's going to be congested. I wonder if a connection along John Street is feasible - if only temporarily. Hopefully service on Queen East and Parliament comes with some lane restrictions, as 504 always crawled from Sackville to King during the years it was running that way while the track was closed through Corktown, when they had those bridge problems.

The 501 can run up York to Queen as well, no?

 

[crs1026]

I'm sure you're right, unfortunately.

This implications for the bus fleet concerns me however. Nowhere in the TTCs bus fleet plan have they planned for a long term suspension of the 501 (and potentially 504). I suppose we might have to end up buying extra buses to serve Queen during the duration of the suspension. Of course, the TTC isn't any stranger to unexpected long term streetcar suspensions

I would hate to see two proposals hitting the TTC Board meeting in the same general time frame - the one being that they need money to buy buses because they are sidelining streetcars during RL construction, and the second asking for money to buy streetcars because they don't have enough. Apart from looking dumb, it might put a long-term chill on that additional streetcar order. Not to mention how anti-streetcar types might spin this to block that additional order (and frankly, the numbers might bear that out).

I hope the TTC gets their story straight on this. These kinds of disconnects always end up biting somehow.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

The 501 can run up York to Queen as well, no?

It could run northbound on York, but what would it do then? They are going to excavate Queen all the way from just east of John Street, to Yonge Street. I suppose they could put temporary tracking along the temporary deck above the construction, like they did on both Yonge and St. Clair West - but I'd think buses and detours are more likely.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Current streetcar track layout from link.

With the relief line coming, and most of the surface construction disrupting around the stations, one can envision where the problems the streetcars and neighbours could face. The city and the TTC should be adding more detour tracks and switches NOW.

 

[W. K. Lis]

It angers me that the planning of the Lakeshore Expressway started after the end of World War II, because of increasing traffic jams. So by 1947, the city planned for a 4-lane highway, except that City Council voted against the plan after 11 hours of deliberation, sending it back to the Board of Control and eventually abandoning it.

By 1953 and 1954, the new Metropolitan Toronto ordered the planning of a 4-lane or 6-lane Lakeshore Expressway. It was still opposed by the City of Toronto, but not the suburban municipalities. The plans were delivered by July, 1954. Construction began in 1955. The first section between the Humber River and Jameson Avenue was completed in 1958. The section to the Don Valley Parkway was completed by 1964. The section to Leslie Street was completed by 1966 and demolished in 2001.

Overall, from planning to completion of the first phase took 10 years (1954 to 1958).

From link.

Some planning for the Relief Line started in 2008. The 120-day Transit Project Assessment Process was announced on April 16, 2018. (?)

From link.

We could have had a relief line if we followed the Gardiner Expressway timeline.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Bloor and Yonge used to have streetcars. Now they don't. Since the RL is not going to follow the 501 completely, can we expect that the 501 will not be removed?

City Staff have already said that they have no plans to remove the 501, even when the Relief Line South and North are built. That presumably means that they'll be a 3.5 km stretch of Queen Street (between Pape and University) that are served both by streetcars AND buses.

Wild speculation time: I'm looking at the map WK.Lis just posted: #10,934

After the opening of the DRL South, it might be possible to segment the 501 into two different routes. The western route would run between Long Branch and McCaul Loop (at Queen and McCaul). The eastern route would run on Queen Street between Victoria Park and King Street East, where it would then turn south to follow the current route of the 504 King.

McCaul Street is just 250 metres west of University, which would be close enough to be served by an additional entrance to University Station. So customers would have to make the 250ish metre underground walk from the subway to McCaul Street to transfer to the streetcar.

Now I personally think it would be a bad idea, BUT I suppose it would be feasible. Don't let Doug Ford see this post.