ehlow
Senior Member
North & West are future studies, as we expected.
Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s
- Thread starter JasonParis
- Start date
North & West are future studies, as we expected.
Adjei
Senior Member
So just getting from Pape to St Andrews is a 7 billion dollar project?
ehlow
Senior Member
I don't think so, the 7 billion comes from here: http://www.bigmove.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/NxWave_DRL.pdf
It says 13km. If they just did the east section it would be closer to 6km I think. So maybe roughly half that? It's probably too early to talk about cost anyways.
Call me an optimist but I'm pretty excited that this is starting.
Edit: based on the TTC study http://www.ttc.ca/PDF/About_the_TTC/DRTES_Final_Report_-_September_2012.pdf, the cost of the east section alone is 3.2 billion
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TheTigerMaster
Superstar
13 km takes you from Dundas West to Paper via Downtown or from Downtown to Eglinton-Don Mills.
Adjei
Senior Member
So why aren't they studying the full 13 km if they are planning on spending that amount?
It'll be interesting to see how all of this phasing plays out. Perhaps they're doing what Ottawa did when it was planning the Confederation line. The TMP had the LRT going from Blair to Baseline via downtown on the priority list, but when it came time to actually doing the studies and the EA, the only part that was looked at was Blair to Tunney's. The Western LRT extension was mentioned in some planning documents, but it was always recognized as "Phase 1B".
I believe this was done for 3 reasons, all of which would hold true for the DRL as well:
1) Cost. Phase 1A of the Confederation Line was $2.1 billion, a big price tag for Ottawa. At $3-4 billion for just the Pape/Donlands to University segment of the DRL, that same sticker shock may hold true in Toronto. Anything beyond that and it starts to get into the "holy crap that's really expensive" range.
2) Alignment issues. The Confederation Line was broken up into two parts because, if that wasn't the case, there would have been too many battles over alignment and design to actually get the project approved. The tunnel in Phase 1A was a big election issue, and I think the City felt like tacking the issues with the NCC and with residents along Richmond-Byron (both stakeholders in the Western LRT extension) would have been too much controversy for one project to reasonably handle. Secure the tunnel and Phase 1A, then focus on the debates around the Western extension.
I suspect the same would very much hold true for the DRL. The alignment for DRL Phase 1 really only has 2 alignment variables: connection at B-D and what E-W street through downtown. The western extension in particular has a plethora of potential alignments. You really don't want public bickering over the alignment through Parkdale to stall the planning and construction of the line through Riverdale.
3) Phasing issues. It's no secret that building DRL Phase 1 would be simpler than building DRL Phase 1 + 2. It breaks the construction work up into more manageable pieces. Maybe they're learning something from trying to cram so much of the Eglinton LRT into a single phase. You also have to deal with traffic delays due to construction. Too many detours or lane closures in too many places spread out over a longer construction period makes for more unhappy people. The residents along Scott St east of Tunney's are already up in arms about having Transitway buses diverted onto Scott during LRT construction. Imagine if they were doing the Western LRT extension at the same time, and they were detouring for ALL of Scott.
I believe this was done for 3 reasons, all of which would hold true for the DRL as well:
1) Cost. Phase 1A of the Confederation Line was $2.1 billion, a big price tag for Ottawa. At $3-4 billion for just the Pape/Donlands to University segment of the DRL, that same sticker shock may hold true in Toronto. Anything beyond that and it starts to get into the "holy crap that's really expensive" range.
2) Alignment issues. The Confederation Line was broken up into two parts because, if that wasn't the case, there would have been too many battles over alignment and design to actually get the project approved. The tunnel in Phase 1A was a big election issue, and I think the City felt like tacking the issues with the NCC and with residents along Richmond-Byron (both stakeholders in the Western LRT extension) would have been too much controversy for one project to reasonably handle. Secure the tunnel and Phase 1A, then focus on the debates around the Western extension.
I suspect the same would very much hold true for the DRL. The alignment for DRL Phase 1 really only has 2 alignment variables: connection at B-D and what E-W street through downtown. The western extension in particular has a plethora of potential alignments. You really don't want public bickering over the alignment through Parkdale to stall the planning and construction of the line through Riverdale.
3) Phasing issues. It's no secret that building DRL Phase 1 would be simpler than building DRL Phase 1 + 2. It breaks the construction work up into more manageable pieces. Maybe they're learning something from trying to cram so much of the Eglinton LRT into a single phase. You also have to deal with traffic delays due to construction. Too many detours or lane closures in too many places spread out over a longer construction period makes for more unhappy people. The residents along Scott St east of Tunney's are already up in arms about having Transitway buses diverted onto Scott during LRT construction. Imagine if they were doing the Western LRT extension at the same time, and they were detouring for ALL of Scott.
ehlow
Senior Member
I doubt there's any commitment on how much they're going to spend right now.
Good points gweed123, if it means parts of the subway open before the others do, I'm all for it. Progress is progress.
Palma
Senior Member
I don't undeerstand the length of these studies. You will get people who want a station near them (or not). No news here. It will impact traffice while beign built (surprise, surprise - I think not). Can't the "transit experts" or perferably Byford at the TTC indicate their preferred route and debate that. Then bring to the public - but not to change things about the line and have things get out of hand like the Eglinton crosstown.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The phases:
The FAQs:
The FAQs:
FAQs
Q: What are we studying?
A: The City of Toronto, in collaboration with TTC and Metrolinx, are studying options for a new rapid transit line connecting the Yonge-University-Spadina Subway downtown, travelling east and north to meet the Bloor-Danforth Subway somewhere between Broadview and Coxwell. The first phase of study is now commencing, which involves seeking public input on the study approach and a consultation plan.
Q: Why are we planning the eastern section of the Relief Line between Downtown and the Bloor-Danforth Subway east of the Don River first?
A: This initial phase would provide the greatest and most immediate impact to relieving overcrowding on the Yonge Subway. Riders west of Yonge Street already have the option of the University line to travel into the downtown. The first phase of the proposed new line would offer the same service to riders from the east and north, including East York, Scarborough, and parts of North York and the former City of Toronto.
Potential future phases of the Relief Line can include extensions west from the central business district to Bloor-Danforth Subway somewhere between Lansdowne and Keele as well as North from the Bloor-Danforth Subway to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT in the vincity of Don Mills Road. These extensions have not yet been studied.
Q: What is Metrolinx studying?
A: Metrolinx will consider broader solutions from a network perspective, such as which GO Transit assets and rail corridors can be leveraged to find a solution. Metrolinx’s Yonge Relief Network Study is evaluating a range of transit network and policy alternatives to relieve the Yonge Subway. There may be other infrastructure and policy alternatives that could serve as medium and shorter-term or complementary solutions to a relief rapid transit line.
Q: How are you coordinating these studies?
A: The findings of the City’s specific study will feed into the broader Metrolinx study. These projects, along with complementary ongoing work at Metrolinx, York Region, and the City, form the Regional Relief Strategy. All of the project partners believe that we can get further, faster when all governments and agencies work together.
Q: Why are we planning a new rapid transit line?
A: Both the City/TTC and Metrolinx have identified capacity issues bringing people to and from work in the downtown core. Union Station and the Bloor-Yonge interchange currently experience extreme congestion at times, and even with planned operational and equipment improvements, both will be over capacity in the next 15 years or so. A new rapid transit line is an option to provide relief to both Bloor/Yonge and Union Stations to help maintain access into downtown.
Q: Where will it run?
A: No decision has been made on the exact route. It will connect with the Yonge-University-Spadina Subway downtown, travelling east and north to meet the Bloor-Danforth Subway somewhere between Broadview and Coxwell. As part of this study we will be exploring every possible option – with public input every step of the way.
Q: Is it a subway?
A: No specific technology has been chosen for the new line. However, projected demand will require high capacity vehicles operating very frequently. Any new line will be fully separated from traffic using dedicated routes.
Q: When will I be able to ride it?
A: Even with funding and approvals in place the new line may not be operational for several years. There are projects currently underway that will carry increased demand for the short-term future. The new rapid transit line is a top priority for the next phase of transit expansion and that's why it is being studied now.
Q: How much will it cost?
A: The proposed new line will operate mostly in tunnels, and will require stations in the highest-density and most built-up areas in Canada. Whichever option is recommended will require an enormous investment; however, no precise budget can be developed until the plan and preliminary engineering analysis is complete.
Q: Who is going to pay for it? Is it funded?
A: There is currently no funding in place. It is, however, a top priority for the City of Toronto, the TTC and Metrolinx and is included in the next wave of projects. Metrolinx and the Province of Ontario are actively exploring revenue and funding options to be implemented in the near future.
Q: Who will ride it?
A: The line will attract riders from the north and east parts of the city, including Scarborough, East York, parts of North York and the former City of Toronto. It will offer them a fast, more convenient route in and out of the downtown core. There is enough rider demand in the corridor today to make it a viable rapid transit route.
The new line will offer an alternative route into the downtown core that is fast and convenient, allowing commuters to bypass the busy Yonge-Bloor interchange and the congestion of the Yonge Subway line. There is enough rider demand in the corridor today to make it a viable rapid transit route.
Q: Isn't this just another subway for the downtown?
A: No. While the new rapid transit line will travel downtown, it is expected to attract riders from the north and east parts of the city, including Scarborough, East York, and parts of North York as well as from the former City of Toronto.
Q: Will it be part of the TTC?
A: There is no intention or desire to separate the line from the existing network. Metrolinx, the TTC and their municipal and provincial partners understand that integration with the network is key to providing excellent transit service.
Q: What is being done now to deal with congestion in the system? Aren't there quick fixes that can be done now?
A: At this time, we anticipate that the Yonge Relief Network Study to be complete by spring 2015. The study will seek to make recommendations for short-, medium- and long-term time horizons.
There are also several projects underway today that will increase capacity on the current network, including: implementation of an Automated Train Control system; acquisition of new, larger Toronto Rocket trains; increasing the capacity of the downtown streetcar network through the acquisition of new, larger articulated streetcars; and capacity improvements at Union Station.
- See more at: http://www.regionalrelief.ca/city-of-toronto/the-project/faqs#sthash.gkygKzyo.dpuf
ehlow
Senior Member
I really hope Phase 1 at least goes to Spadina, even though in the image on the site it shows the study area only going to University.
JasonParis
Moderator
Realistically, it will have to take into consideration Metrolinx's idea for a western Union Station (so Spadina is about right).
rbt
Senior Member
Do you really want to delay the start of the Eastern Section for soil testing and fiddling with station locations up near Eglinton? They can't submit part of an EA for approval.
The Northern Section study can begin the day the Eastern Section study is complete; construction may be continuous from one to the other.
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ehlow
Senior Member
I'm seriously hoping that that whole "Western Union" idea is just a straw man to justify a GO tunnel, either under the existing rail corridor or along a new corridor further north (like in my GO REX plan). The Western Union proposal that was included in that white paper a while back made my stomach turn.
rbt
Senior Member
The study needs to be complete. The Northern section study may begin long before construction begins.