Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[gweed123]

One thing that I heard a bit ago, and when I think about it it makes a lot of sense, is actually ending the DRL at Barber Greene, with the south end overlapping the rail corridor. Hopefully by the time the DRL is built there is some sort of GO service running on the Midtown line, in which case having a DRL transfer point there would take a lot of pressure off of Summerhill Stn for downtown-bound passengers, and by extension the Yonge line southbound. It's not a significantly further distance than Eglinton, and would provide a lot of added benefits.

As for Don Mills north of Eglinton though, I think the best bet for the foreseeable future is a dedicated lane BRT service (I know, surprise coming from me). The service could run from the terminus of the DRL all the way up to Unionville and Downtown Markham, hitting Fairview and Seneca along the way. It would go a long way to funnelling eastern York Region riders off the Yonge line, especially if the BRT service featured some kind of a semi-express service once it reached Seneca.

Until that BRT, which would cost almost nothing to build, because Don Mills already has HOV lanes, is bursting at the seams like the Broadway BRT in Vancouver is, I don't think a subway further north than Eglinton would really be warranted. But I think spending a few million on a BRT service on that corridor and then having it be a tremendous success in need of upgrade is a much better approach than spending billions on a subway extension and having it be a flop. At least if the BRT service is bursting at the seams you know a subway along the corridor is viable. And as it stands today, I'm not sure that a subway north of Eglinton is.

 

[BurlOak]

One thing that I heard a bit ago, and when I think about it it makes a lot of sense, is actually ending the DRL at Barber Greene, with the south end overlapping the rail corridor. Hopefully by the time the DRL is built there is some sort of GO service running on the Midtown line, in which case having a DRL transfer point there would take a lot of pressure off of Summerhill Stn for downtown-bound passengers, and by extension the Yonge line southbound. It's not a significantly further distance than Eglinton, and would provide a lot of added benefits.

As for Don Mills north of Eglinton though, I think the best bet for the foreseeable future is a dedicated lane BRT service (I know, surprise coming from me). The service could run from the terminus of the DRL all the way up to Unionville and Downtown Markham, hitting Fairview and Seneca along the way. It would go a long way to funnelling eastern York Region riders off the Yonge line, especially if the BRT service featured some kind of a semi-express service once it reached Seneca.

Until that BRT, which would cost almost nothing to build, because Don Mills already has HOV lanes, is bursting at the seams like the Broadway BRT in Vancouver is, I don't think a subway further north than Eglinton would really be warranted. But I think spending a few million on a BRT service on that corridor and then having it be a tremendous success in need of upgrade is a much better approach than spending billions on a subway extension and having it be a flop. At least if the BRT service is bursting at the seams you know a subway along the corridor is viable. And as it stands today, I'm not sure that a subway north of Eglinton is.

I don't head to that part of town too often, so I can't comment on the passenger load. But I think that ridership on east-west routes would be a much better indication of the Don Mill's subway potential success since many of those riders would presumably be heading Downtown via the Yonge Subway.

Tiger is right. It is not necessarily a matter of the demand on Don Mills, it is the east-west demand than can be intercepted. If most riders still take Steeles, Finch, etc. all the way from Scarborough to Yonge, not much has been achieved. I also think that "relieving" Yonge by reducing the loading from 100% to 99% would not be viewed as success for the DRL. Downtown West to Seneca is about 20 something kilometres - about the same as the Canada Line in Vancouver. This should be built in one shot (one P3 contract), but the opening could be staggered by maybe 5 to 8 years.

 

[Voltz]

The DRL does not need to go north of Eglinton, or possibly the rail corridor just north of it. The only major east west route that would still have to go to the Yonge line is York Mills. All other routes would go to The DRL or Sheppard line.

 

[drum118]

The DRL does not need to go north of Eglinton, or possibly the rail corridor just north of it. The only major east west route that would still have to go to the Yonge line is York Mills. All other routes would go to The DRL or Sheppard line.

I guess you don't ride the subway north of Eglinton or have a clue what is taking place in the way of development on Yonge north of the 401??

If the white elephant get expanded north of Steeles, it will add a few more riders than now. Between Steeles and Sheppard, ridership will increase 5+ times the current ridership once all the development takes place on Yonge itself. Add in all the other development within 3km of the line, you will understand why I am pushing the DRL to Steeles let alone hwy 7.

By having feeder lines feeding into the DRL sooner than Yonge, riders can get to the core faster or where they are going. This free up space on Yonge for the future riders that will replace the lost riders.

At the end of the day even if the DRL is built to Hwy 7, a new Yonge line is going to be needed and it should be the express line like people having being calling for.

Can't base your plan on what there now nor 20 years from now and need to have a vision for the future.

If plan right, the DRL can open in various phases with construction still taking place on the "Whole" line.

I have no issue taking the Yonge Line to Steeles today since it should had happen on day one. It would save everyone time and money having the line going to Steeles today.

Having the DRL acting as an S-Bahn has more + than -.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

At the end of the day even if the DRL is built to Hwy 7, a new Yonge line is going to be needed and it should be the express line like people having being calling for.

I agree 100% with this. The DRL will greatly help the crowding situation on Yonge, but the fact of the matter is that no matter how many relief lines are built, the Yonge line will almost certainly be running near or above capacity. The ultimate solution to this problem is the Yonge Express line, perhaps running from Eglinton south to Downtown and only stopping at interchange stations (St. Clair, Bloor, King, Union and perhaps one more). Ideally the DRL to Finch or Steeles would have been completed 10 - 15 years ago and we would be planning for some form of Yonge Express today. It's unfortunate that we've ignored transit in this city for so long.

 

[nfitz]

It's unfortunate that we've ignored transit in this city for so long.

It is indeed. The Tories did a great job under Frost, Robarts, and Davis ... but the Tories under Miller, Harris, and Eves; the Liberals under Peterson; and the NDP under Rae were a disaster for transit. Hopefully with McGuinty and now Wynne we've turned this around. Though neither Howarth or Hudak give me much hope.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I agree 100% with this. The DRL will greatly help the crowding situation on Yonge, but the fact of the matter is that no matter how many relief lines are built, the Yonge line will almost certainly be running near or above capacity. The ultimate solution to this problem is the Yonge Express line, perhaps running from Eglinton south to Downtown and only stopping at interchange stations (St. Clair, Bloor, King, Union and perhaps one more). Ideally the DRL to Finch or Steeles would have been completed 10 - 15 years ago and we would be planning for some form of Yonge Express today. It's unfortunate that we've ignored transit in this city for so long.

Had this floating around my hard drive. This is very likely what we'd be discussing today the the DRL had been completed 15 years ago, as it should have. It would have likely solved any Yonge capacity issues for the foreseeable future.

Full sized version.

 

[diminutive]

Had this floating around my hard drive. This is very likely what we'd be discussing today the the DRL had been completed 15 years ago, as it should have. It would have likely solved any Yonge capacity issues for the foreseeable future.

Full sized version.

I still don't understand why this is necessary. With an Eglinton-DundasWest DRL peak demand on Yonge south of Bloor would only be about 33k pphpd, including the Richmond Hill Extension. Even without going into options like 7th cars or all longitudinal seating that's well within planned route capacity. If you wanted still more capacity you could prob shave a few thousand AM Yonge riders by extending the DRL to Sheppard or Finch in the East or Weston in the West at way lower cost than building a parallel line to Yonge downtown (all things being equal, it should always be cheaper to build in the suburbs than downtown). A Lakeshore east RT line could shave maybe a thousand or so more off of Yonge. So forth and so forth and so forth.

Yonge is in someways kind of a ridiculous line. The only reason its ridership is so high is because it's the only way downtown for much of the City. You could put radial lines almost anywhere and it would syphon off ridership more effectively than a Yonge Express, while also improving service coverage.

Maybe by ~2050 development along the Yonge line will exceed capacity, but that begs the question of why on earth we'd allow soo much density along Yonge. Between Spadina, BD, a potential DRL and maybe improved GO lines surely there would be plenty other places to put condos than Yonge n Finch. It would just be atrocious urban planning if we had to duplicate Yonge.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Especially with too many expanses of parking lots and wide roads throughout the 416.

 

[nfitz]

I still don't understand why this is necessary. With an Eglinton-DundasWest DRL peak demand on Yonge south of Bloor would only be about 33k pphpd, including the Richmond Hill Extension.

That's the 2031 demand. What's the 2061 demand?

Maybe by ~2050 development along the Yonge line will exceed capacity...

Bingo.

But that's also the reason that there's no point in debating this in relation to the DRL. The DRL isn't designed to reduce ridership along the Yonge corridor as much it's designed to reduce the ridiculous number of people changing trains at Bloor-Yonge station, which is currently the bottleneck on the capacity, even if they go to 7-car trains, and ATC.

 

[M II A II R II K]

And beyond 2050 there'd most likely be automatic cars and individual pods on elevated fast tracks with multiple levels of them, which would also have automatic storage parking throughout the city so you wouldn't have to park it yourself. That would truly be able to compete with transit in the rush hour included.

 

[diminutive]

That's the 2031 demand. What's the 2061 demand?

Who cares?

It's impossible to actually forecast out that far, discounted 2061 benefits are nearly worthless today and demand half a century from now is 100% a function of zoning; 2061 demand can be whatever we want it to be.

I'm just shocked how frequently the 'Yonge express' idea gets floated considering how unnecessary it is. I don't think there is a similar case on earth where they've decided to literally parallel a line, meter for meter. Even super high volume lines like RER A or the Yamanote.

The DRL's point may not be be to relieve Yonge as such but, given the extent to which nearly all routes in Toronto feed into Yonge to go downtown, any rapid transit which ran into the core would syphon riders from Yonge.

 

[nfitz]

Who cares?

Precisely. Like the Sheppard subway, there isn't the numbers to support it yet.

I don't think there is a similar case on earth where they've decided to literally parallel a line, meter for meter.

There are however rapid transit lines that have been replaced by another rapid transit line with much higher capacity along the same alignment, and then the original line has been removed.

 

[EnviroTO]

And beyond 2050 there'd most likely be automatic cars and individual pods on elevated fast tracks with multiple levels of them, which would also have automatic storage parking throughout the city so you wouldn't have to park it yourself. That would truly be able to compete with transit in the rush hour included.

Orbit city 2062.

 

[BurlOak]

Orbit city 2062.

you mean like this?

or maybe only near stations or high density residential areas.

I thinks the comment from M II A II R II K that Jetson style personal transit will exist it of course facetious, but I think this does have some merit now for public transit.