Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[M II A II R II K]

Not sure, unless it was specifically for a smaller train covering intracity transit.

Anyway the Science Centre to the top of Pape should be easier since there's not much there, in fact much of it can be at grade or elevated.

 

[Filip]

Yes, it's terrible service west of Humber. I'd recommend filing a formal complaint with TTC every time you have a 20-minute wait. Still, 501 shouldn't get worse with the new streetcars.

Though you should be at least somewhat heartened by the service improvements that they've announced for April 1st (no joke!) http://www.ttc.ca/Service_Advisories/Service_changes/mar501.jsp

Though I don't see the DRL doing anything for service between Long Branch and Humber.

The DRL would do wonders! (assuming the interchange is at Roncesvalles which seems to be the idea for now). The Lake Shore streetcar can be brought back with a turn at Roncesvalles, which means good coverage west, and no need to go through Queen St, which is where all the problems begin and end.

Filip:

Most (if not all) of the proposed alignments of the DRL does not go west enough to provide a huge amount of relief to southern Etobicoke, and there are really no plans change that. It may provide some relief for the 501 depending on where the interchange occurs, but one's best bet for significant improvement is probably improving the reliability/dependability and speed of the existing portion of the 501 line up to that interchange point.

That, and/or a BD extension to Sherway? Again, it suffers from the problem of not being able to serve the area directly.

AoD

As I mentioned above, Roncesvalles would do wonders. It takes just over 10 minutes to reach Roncy, so a subway ride from there would be very quick compared to the 30-40 minute journey through Queen St as things presently stand.

 

[nfitz]

I am talking from my own experience, and it is in 2001, 2010, 2013. You think I was lucky? I haven't had any experience driving in London (scary of driving "on the wrong side"), but, as a pedestrian, I felt it had a busier traffic than Paris.

I haven't been in either for about 5 years. But London, inside the congestion zone, felt quite calm (I hear it has gotten worse though). Certainly just outside the congestion zone is much busier, but I didn't see gridlock.

Paris ... just walking around the neighbourhood around Gare de nord and Gare de l'est at PM rush hour ... it's insane! I'd walk a block, and the cars would barely move ... every evening. And so many noisy scooters ...

 

[nfitz]

The DRL would do wonders! (assuming the interchange is at Roncesvalles which seems to be the idea for now). The Lake Shore streetcar can be brought back with a turn at Roncesvalles, which means good coverage west, and no need to go through Queen St, which is where all the problems begin and end.

No guarantee that there wouldn't still be 501s going down Queen Street. If the next station east of Roncesvalles is a station near Exhibition GO and Dufferin, and the following one is Bathurst/King, then I'd expect there's still be much demand on Queen.

The solution isn't the DRL. It's splitting the service now. Restore the 508.

As I mentioned above, Roncesvalles would do wonders. It takes just over 10 minutes to reach Roncy, so a subway ride from there would be very quick compared to the 30-40 minute journey through Queen St as things presently stand.

Oh, it would do wonders for the commute. But it wouldn't necessarily do anything for streetcar service between Humber and Long Branch.

 

[Filip]

Yes, it's terrible service west of Humber. I'd recommend filing a formal complaint with TTC every time you have a 20-minute wait. Still, 501 shouldn't get worse with the new streetcars.

Though you should be at least somewhat heartened by the service improvements that they've announced for April 1st (no joke!) http://www.ttc.ca/Service_Advisories/Service_changes/mar501.jsp

Though I don't see the DRL doing anything for service between Long Branch and Humber.

No guarantee that there wouldn't still be 501s going down Queen Street. If the next station east of Roncesvalles is a station near Exhibition GO and Dufferin, and the following one is Bathurst/King, then I'd expect there's still be much demand on Queen.

The solution isn't the DRL. It's splitting the service now. Restore the 508.

Oh, it would do wonders for the commute. But it wouldn't necessarily do anything for streetcar service between Humber and Long Branch.

It doesn't even matter to me personally.. I work at King and Bay and use the 145 Humber Bay Express to get to and from work (20 min commute! WOOT!). On weekends I drive or take the GO - so really, I avoid that streetcar like the plague.

 

[vz64]

I haven't been in either for about 5 years. But London, inside the congestion zone, felt quite calm (I hear it has gotten worse though). Certainly just outside the congestion zone is much busier, but I didn't see gridlock.

Paris ... just walking around the neighbourhood around Gare de nord and Gare de l'est at PM rush hour ... it's insane! I'd walk a block, and the cars would barely move ... every evening. And so many noisy scooters ...

For some reason(s), it is much calmer now, Gare de Lyon was easy to drive to. I am not even mentioning some popular tourist areas, such as Montmartre where you hardly see any car and plenty of parking spots available... Maybe it was due to March break they had, but I think the main reason has to do with public transportation. Why do you need a car when you can cycle/metro/PER everywhere. I am just puzzled how they could afford building PER tunnels underground, the tunnels that can take two-deck trains... and build a very extensive network of high-speed TGV trains in such a short time (from mid 70s).

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Filip:

In that scenario agreed.

nfitz:

Perhaps they should have DRL and split the service, and have the westbound stretch working more as a real LRT, and the portion of 501 in the core as a more traditional "streetcar" line?

AoD

 

[nfitz]

For some reason(s), it is much calmer now, Gare de Lyon was easy to drive to. I am not even mentioning some popular tourist areas, such as Montmartre where you hardly see any car and plenty of parking spots available... Maybe it was due to March break they had, but I think the main reason has to do with public transportation.

I'm perplexed. Transit certainly hasn't changed in that area for years (decades!). But the French do like their vacations ... perhaps that is the explanation.

Why do you need a car when you can cycle/metro/PER everywhere.

What's funny is I've had the similar thought when I'm there. Why so many people in cars, when you can take the metro everywhere. I've had the same thought in Seoul as well.

 

[BurlOak]

Seeing as this is the new DRL thread (perhaps a merger is in order?), I did come up with an idea: Why not use Transit City rolling stock instead of traditional subway EMUs? The key advantage of this is that it would use overhead wires rather than a third rail for power, which could provide far more flexibility in the routing. While the line should be as separated from other traffic as much as possible for obvious reasons, the flexibility could make extensions more feasible.

For example, if it is to continue north to Eglinton, it could piggyback on the Millwood bridge across the DVP rather than building a whole new structure. Likewise, it could continue north to Eglinton via either Laird or Overlea/Don Mills, and perhaps branch off of the Eglinton-Crosstown line. This could allow a single seat from McCowan to downtown without overcrowding the Yonge line!

The main point here is that the DRL will not relieve the Yonge line - even if it goes to Eglinton. This one-seat ride is not just for the convenience of Scarborough passengers, it is to provide extra encouragement for riders to take this route and not transfer at Yonge-Bloor. Of course it would mean that Eglinton would have to be grade-separated through Scarborough.

I still think that the DRL extended up Don Mills to Seneca College would probably be better - it is closer to Yonge so it would do a better job relieving the Yonge subway. Although maybe alternating trains from STC and Yorkdale going down the DRL route would work as well.

 

[innsertnamehere]

the problem is that this is expecting 15,000 pphpd on opening day, meaning that if you use LRT tech you would have to be running on 1.75 minute frequencies to satisfy that demand (see:http://www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/transitexpansionprojects/EglintonScarboroughCrosstownUpdate_Feb72012.pdf)

Heavy rail gives you 35,000 pphpd at 1.5 minute frequencies, compared to 20,000 for LRT. that is a significant amount, and an amount I can see being needed on the DRL within 10 years of opening.

as for eglinton, I wouldn't be surprised if they determine that eglinton should be grade seperated once the DRL starts to reach eglinton, which I find unlikely to happen until at least 2030.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I still think that the DRL extended up Don Mills to Seneca College would probably be better - it is closer to Yonge so it would do a better job relieving the Yonge subway. Although maybe alternating trains from STC and Yorkdale going down the DRL route would work as well.

Everybody (and I mean EVERYBODY) agrees with you on this. I cannot begin to imagine why the TTC or Metrolinx haven't studied extending the DRL north of Eglinton. Seems like such a common sense thing to do.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Another subway through nowhere perhaps. Unless they can convert Don Mills to be as dense as Yonge north of Eglinton instead of too suburban.

 

[nfitz]

Everybody (and I mean EVERYBODY) agrees with you on this. I cannot begin to imagine why the TTC or Metrolinx haven't studied extending the DRL north of Eglinton. Seems like such a common sense thing to do.

I don't agree. I've commuted on the Don Mills Bus on and off since the 1980s. The passenger load north of Eglinton is much lighter than south of Eglinton. Maybe keep going one more stop to Wynford (and perhaps put that stop east of the DVP ...).

Though even the first piece from Yonge to Danforth will divert a lot of passengers from Bloor-Yonge, because the trip from (say Pape) to downtown on that route will be much faster than taking the other 2 sides of the triangle.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Another subway through nowhere perhaps. Unless they can convert Don Mills to be as dense as Yonge north of Eglinton instead of too suburban.

A quick scan of a density map shows that a Don Mills Subway would be running thorough areas of similar density to the Spadina Subway. And even without that density the line would likely be very viable. The TTC's subway trip generators have always been transfers from surface routes. The purpose of the Don Mills line would be to intercept and provide an alternate route for many of the downtown-bound Scarborough riders who would normally take a bus or the ECLRT to the Yonge line.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I don't agree. I've commuted on the Don Mills Bus on and off since the 1980s. The passenger load north of Eglinton is much lighter than south of Eglinton. Maybe keep going one more stop to Wynford (and perhaps put that stop east of the DVP ...).

Though even the first piece from Yonge to Danforth will divert a lot of passengers from Bloor-Yonge, because the trip from (say Pape) to downtown on that route will be much faster than taking the other 2 sides of the triangle.

I don't head to that part of town too often, so I can't comment on the passenger load. But I think that ridership on east-west routes would be a much better indication of the Don Mill's subway potential success since many of those riders would presumably be heading Downtown via the Yonge Subway.