Toronto Maple Leaf Square | 185.92m | 54s | Lanterra | KPMB

this may very well become an extension of the financial district and not an official 'neighbourhood'.

Perhaps, but I see MCC as a better point of comparison. Bremner feels like Hurontario with lots of traffic, condo highrises and the type of retail/commercial that functions to serve residents rather than attract those strolling by. MLS will likely be busy before games but will anybody really want to go 'hang out' at Bremner and York? Liberty Village seems to be developing in a more interesting way as a place that stands a greater chance to evolve into a real urban neighbourhood, as nebulous a concept as that may be.
 
Actually, I could see myself hanging out at Bremner/York. The sports bar in MLS is the kind of thing I actually would go out of my way to visit.
 
On top of that York/Bremmer is right in between Queens Quay-Harbourfront/Union Station/Financial District & the Entertainment District.

This place will be hopping at all times, without a doubt, when all phases of all projects under consideration at the intersection have been completed. I just can't see this place as lame and as boring as MCC.
 
With all the office buildings going up, there should be lots of people milling about during the daytime. Also, considering how far these building go toward connecting downtown to the waterfront, I'd expect to see an increase of pedestrian traffic just passing through. Once all four corners are built up, I wouldn't be surprised if this part of the city never sleeps.
 
CityPlace, The Dome and CN Tower to the west, Harbourfront to the south,, the core and Union Station to the north and the ACC to the east. Significant office space on all four corners plus retail, a hotel and residential. How can this area not be busy?
 
Even without the offices, there is lots of reason to believe that this will be place where stuff is going on a lot.

It has 4 major "people delivery" destinations within view/short walk (ACC, SkyDome, Convention Centre, La Tour CN).....these will deliver lots of people to the area year round....people who currently attend events then walk/cab/bus away to more fun parts of town....with a growing residential population and the retail/restaraunts being delivered then I can see there being life down there.

Add in the hotels (Le germain, the propsoal at Simcoe and Bremner, the ability of Intercontinental guests to "walk south" a likely regeneration of SkyDome hotel {whoever owns that now must be loving this}) and now there is life.....it connects, as others said, the waterfront to the city, as well, so once people figure all this out I suspect that York and Simcoe will see a fair bit of foot traffic north/south and Bremner will be the east west connector too......'specially once it goes through to bathurst.
 
The area may or may not be busy.... but there is absolutely no reason to go there unless you live there or are attending a game. There is absolutely nothing to do in the area.

Which is why as soon as games are over, people get out of there. And that's the only time the area will be busy.
 
The area may or may not be busy.... but there is absolutely no reason to go there unless you live there or are attending a game. There is absolutely nothing to do in the area.

Which is why as soon as games are over, people get out of there. And that's the only time the area will be busy.

Syntax error - verb tense disagreement. You speak of the current situation as if this is all that could ever happen here.
 
The area may or may not be busy.... but there is absolutely no reason to go there unless you live there or are attending a game. There is absolutely nothing to do in the area.

Which is why as soon as games are over, people get out of there. And that's the only time the area will be busy.

I think you have to free your mind and think forward a bit......the industry I am in holds about 3 conventions/forums/seminars a year at the south building of the convention centre.....currently, everyone (whether they are locals or out of towners) arrives from the north....they either walk there from their hotels or offices through the PATH or down the streets....after the meetings...they re-trace their steps....a lot of them don't even know you can get out of the convention centre through that south door....currently when you show them they can they usually say "and why would I do that".

Flip forward to 2011....not only will some of them be staying at a hotel down there (Germain is very popular in our industry).....but they will be aware of the new restaraunts (the fine dining spot at MLS...the sports bar there, casual at St. Louis Bar and Grill, presumably there might be more....food in the Telus (I don't know)....that little coffee place across Bremner from SkyDome..... but general awareness will grow and with the filling in of the empty lots it will not be the windswept wasteland it always has been.

Extrapolate that from the 3 meetings/conventions that I attend.....to the nearly every day activitiy at the South Building which (I am pretty sure) behaves no differently than our industry........the 81 Ball games.....this year SkyDome is back as a concert venue (I think there are already 4 or 5 major sold out concerts booked there this year)...all of the visitors to the CN Tour, the hockey (41 home dates....maybe some day playoffs)....the basketball (ditto)...Lacrosse.....concerts at ACC...these will all bring life to the various bars and restaraunts (the planned and yet to be planned)......the connnection on Simcoe bringing car traffic through on the way home raises awareness..etc etc etc......

...this area has every chance of becoming a place with activity/buzz....and with the support of the various winter sporting events...this place might be year round (something few areas in Toronto can boast).
 
I'm optimistic that the area will see lots of pedestrian traffic.

Maybe what's needed is a large open space that will anchor all this activity. Perhaps the plaza in front of the Skydome and the CN Tower, plus the open space in front of the Roundhouse, can serve as a major public space, on a par with Dundas Square, for the area.
 
First of all I should preface by saying that I do hope I am wrong and that this does turn out to be a vibrant urban area. I will gladly stand corrected on this topic.

That said, some here are suggesting that foot traffic 'passing through' or the sport bar node around the ACC will constitute a dynamic urban neighbourhood. I would beg to differ. At certain times of the day MCC also has foot traffic and residents, coming and going to or from Square One or the office towers around it, or coming and going through the transportation hub that exists there, yet still nobody would characterize the area as a definition of 'urban' that we would hope for in the central city of Toronto.

Some here also point to the proximity of the area to the Sky Dome/CN Tower and the waterfront etc as a key factor that will make the area dynamic but I would also differ here, offering Front St. West and perhaps Bay Street (north of Queen) as points of comparison. Although there are few residents in the immediate vacinity Front Street is in the heart of a very busy tourist/business zone with the Convention centre, the Royal York and many other hotels and restaurants, and the CN Tower/Sky Dome etc. near by, and even though at certain times it bustles with people coming and going the area does by and large feel like an unwelcoming dead zone 'off season' or when there are no events happening. It certainly doesn't feel like an urban place/scene that encourages one to linger. Bay Street as another comparison does have lots of residential and is very close to the perrenial attraction that is Yonge Street and yet also still manages to feel dead or singularly 'residential' all he time.

Some also say that they will be attracted to the area because of the sports bars. This is good, but the issue of urbanism in an area doesn't have to be black and white. There may be times when the area is very lively because people are drawn there for a particular reason or activity. I would suspect though that a truly successful urbanism calls for a certain layered diversity of people and usage, such that when 'some' people are drawn to the area to partake of one type of specific activity then we are essentially talking about a successful tourist zone or site rather than a successful urban neighbourhood.

Given enough time to allow for more organic development this area may become urban. Who knows? I hope it does but my experience of the development there so far doesn't leave me hopeful. This area along with City Place may provide good dense residential for the city in locations that are accessible to transit and adjacent to urban areas but i'm not sure that we'll ever see a diversity of people just hanging out and being in those places because it's where they want to simply 'be'?
 
You forgot one thing in your post Tweder,.... and that is the fact the intersection is next to the busiest transportation hub in the country.

Also, the development is not complete, you are comparing "the place" as it exists "now", not as "how it will be" in the "future" when all the development is complete. As far as I'm concerned, this intersection is already "now" far more vibrant than any residential corridor could ever hope to be. At least one that has been thrown together from pure scratch in the past 6 or 7 years.
 
Tewder, you have written an excellent post and I tend to agree. Condos do not tend to add a lot of street life (for whatever reason) and neither do office buildings in the evenings or weekends. With the retail being concentrated inside MLS, and largely no street retail at any of the four corners of Bremmer and York, I cannot see this area being anything but a soleless place to pass through...to some other place. It certainly will not be a corner to hang around at.
 
My own thoughts, for what they are worth.

If this area is to become a dynamic, heavily trafficked neighbourhood, it needs to become a popular destination for Toronto residents in its own right. "Through traffic" to the Harbourfront, the ACC or the Skydome / CN tower is not enough, being seasonal (Harbourfront) or only during events (ACC and Skydome). In addition, these people would not be spending much money outside of their ultimate destinations. While a lot of people will be passing through this area, few of them will do anything other than transit without stopping, on their way to other destinations.

One way to attract people to the area itself would be for it to become a shopping destination in its own right, similar to a smaller Kensington, Queen Street West or St. Lawrence neighbourhood. But the built form is totally different, consisting of a small number of high-rises instead of a district of low-rise residences converted to shops. I just can't see it easily happening. Perhaps if the ground levels of each of the area's buildings were to be dedicated to a multitude of small shops of all kinds -- not merely the usual dry cleaners / convenience stores that typically occupy what few spaces exist, but a diverse collection of music stores, clothing stores, book stores, cafes, and so on that between them would occupy almost all the available street frontage. However, given the limited number of actually available storefronts, it might make more sense to specialise in some market niche, such as art galleries, the idea being to give Torontonians a positive reason to visit this particular area, instead of some other place.
 

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